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A/C and heat pump - is it one unit ?

15K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  LowOnCash 
#1 ·
Hello,

The question arised when I've noticed few days ago, that after switching AC on the range on GOM actually increased ... (outside temp ca 5 deg. C)

So I have two hypothesis:
1. AC and heat pump are the same unit (working "in reverse") so switching AC on = Heat pump on and better heating efficiency
or
2. GOM "with AC" was not adapted to my driving and shows manufacturer default value.

Could you please let me (and other users!) know what is the case ? If "1" I think Jaguar shall much stronger emphasis that "AC" MUST be switched on at low temps....

Regards,
Pawel
 
#2 ·
This is very interesting as whenever I have turned on heating, the range has dropped slightly.

I haven't had the car long enough to turn on A/C (cold air) and here in the UK currently it is around 8-10 degrees, so not a temp that I can correctly test A/C
 
#4 ·
Good Morning Kinemax,

Thank you for your post.

After raising your questions with our Technical Team, it appears that there could be a number of factors in play here. The range could be increasing as the battery warms up and is co-incidental to the AC being switched on.

Without knowing the exact circumstances in which you are using the AC system, it is difficult for JLR as a manufacturer to comment on your observations.

There is no direct link to battery range going up after turning the AC on, in fact our Online Range Calculator would suggest the opposite effect:

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/electric-vehicles/index.html

I hope this has answered your query.

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
 
#5 ·
Be careful not to confuse turning off the climate control completely with turning off just the A/C pump (the heat pump).

If you turn off the climate control completely there is no heating or cooling at all so the range is increased.
This is what the Online Range Calculator shows when you toggle "AC/Heating" on or off.
It does not show you the difference between heating by heat pump vs. heating by resistive element.

On the Nissan Leaf the difference is clear as there is a display of the power being used by the climate control system.
It would save a lot of discussions if we had that display on the IPace.
 
#6 ·
CRC@Jaguar said:
kinemax said:
Hello,

The question arised when I've noticed few days ago, that after switching AC on the range on GOM actually increased ... (outside temp ca 5 deg. C)

So I have two hypothesis:
1. AC and heat pump are the same unit (working "in reverse") so switching AC on = Heat pump on and better heating efficiency
or
2. GOM "with AC" was not adapted to my driving and shows manufacturer default value.

Could you please let me (and other users!) know what is the case ? If "1" I think Jaguar shall much stronger emphasis that "AC" MUST be switched on at low temps....

Regards,
Pawel
Good Morning Kinemax,

Thank you for your post.

After raising your questions with our Technical Team, it appears that there could be a number of factors in play here. The range could be increasing as the battery warms up and is co-incidental to the AC being switched on.

Without knowing the exact circumstances in which you are using the AC system, it is difficult for JLR as a manufacturer to comment on your observations.

There is no direct link to battery range going up after turning the AC on, in fact our Online Range Calculator would suggest the opposite effect:

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/electric-vehicles/index.html

I hope this has answered your query.

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
I would say no, this dos not answer yo the original question. I and other users also experienced the same range increase (sometimes) immediately as switching on the ac in winter and it can't be just a warming up battery effect as the range jump up some kilometers while battery warming effects should be more gradual.
There are several threads in this forum trying to figure out the most efficient way to use HVAC in winter but we miss some basic information and honestly your suggestion to look at the online range simulator is not helping at all it's just a simulator.
The information we are missing are:
- the heat pump can only produce either cold or heat at a given moment or there are separate circuits so they can be produced both at the same time?
- if the heat pump can only produce either heat or cold at the same time, switching ac on in winter while the cabin needs heat, does it mean that only resistors are used to produce heat?
- what is the logic the HVAC system is using to warm up the cabin: only resistors ? only heat pump ? A combination of both depending on the temperature ? Other.... ?
- is there a way to keep air circulation on with both ac and heat pump or resistors off? During mid season i would like just to vent the cabin but as soon as the cabin temperature is not the one selected the chiamate control kicks in and I need to jerk around with the temperature settings to find a spot where there is neither ac nor heat on.

I hope to get some specific and technical answers and not another reference to range simulator if possible. Thanks ;)
 
#7 ·
That's very precise questions Kermit68 :) and I'd be also very glad for precise answers...

Recently, after driving some 1000km with AC always on, I've noticed that sometime switching AC on after short "off" doesn't increase range and sometimes does, but range NEVER decreases ( "AC on range" >= "AC off range"). General climate control is always on at "intelligent" setting...
 
#8 ·
kermit68 said:
CRC@Jaguar said:
kinemax said:
Hello,

The question arised when I've noticed few days ago, that after switching AC on the range on GOM actually increased ... (outside temp ca 5 deg. C)

So I have two hypothesis:
1. AC and heat pump are the same unit (working "in reverse") so switching AC on = Heat pump on and better heating efficiency
or
2. GOM "with AC" was not adapted to my driving and shows manufacturer default value.

Could you please let me (and other users!) know what is the case ? If "1" I think Jaguar shall much stronger emphasis that "AC" MUST be switched on at low temps....

Regards,
Pawel
Good Morning Kinemax,

Thank you for your post.

After raising your questions with our Technical Team, it appears that there could be a number of factors in play here. The range could be increasing as the battery warms up and is co-incidental to the AC being switched on.

Without knowing the exact circumstances in which you are using the AC system, it is difficult for JLR as a manufacturer to comment on your observations.

There is no direct link to battery range going up after turning the AC on, in fact our Online Range Calculator would suggest the opposite effect:

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/electric-vehicles/index.html

I hope this has answered your query.

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
I would say no, this dos not answer yo the original question. I and other users also experienced the same range increase (sometimes) immediately as switching on the ac in winter and it can't be just a warming up battery effect as the range jump up some kilometers while battery warming effects should be more gradual.
There are several threads in this forum trying to figure out the most efficient way to use HVAC in winter but we miss some basic information and honestly your suggestion to look at the online range simulator is not helping at all it's just a simulator.
The information we are missing are:
- the heat pump can only produce either cold or heat at a given moment or there are separate circuits so they can be produced both at the same time?
- if the heat pump can only produce either heat or cold at the same time, switching ac on in winter while the cabin needs heat, does it mean that only resistors are used to produce heat?
- what is the logic the HVAC system is using to warm up the cabin: only resistors ? only heat pump ? A combination of both depending on the temperature ? Other.... ?
- is there a way to keep air circulation on with both ac and heat pump or resistors off? During mid season i would like just to vent the cabin but as soon as the cabin temperature is not the one selected the chiamate control kicks in and I need to jerk around with the temperature settings to find a spot where there is neither ac nor heat on.

I hope to get some specific and technical answers and not another reference to range simulator if possible. Thanks ;)
Good Morning Kermit68

Thank you for your post.

I would like to take the opportunity to offer my assistance. Please may I request that you provide your Vehicle Identification Number via PM and I will be more than happy to escalate your queries with our Technical Team.

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
 
#9 ·
kinemax said:
That's very precise questions Kermit68 :) and I'd be also very glad for precise answers...

Recently, after driving some 1000km with AC always on, I've noticed that sometime switching AC on after short "off" doesn't increase range and sometimes does, but range NEVER decreases ( "AC on range" >= "AC off range"). General climate control is always on at "intelligent" setting...
Good Morning Kinemax,

Thank you for your response.

I would be more than happy to assist further, please may I request that you provide your Vehicle Identification Number through a PM and I will investigate your concerns.

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
 
G
#11 ·
kermit68 said:
JLR informed me that the questions I've asked will not be answered. It seems there is a matter of know how disclosure or at least least this is what I understood.
I've never heard of a manufacturer not explaining how basic equipment works. A rival will simply buy a car and tear it apart. Owners need to understand the new technology and there's nothing secret about heating/cooling EVs. There are certainly minor differences between manufacturers but I can't image Tesla, BMW, etc. being overly interested in a JLR climate control system.
 
#12 ·
GoneNuts said:
kermit68 said:
JLR informed me that the questions I've asked will not be answered. It seems there is a matter of know how disclosure or at least least this is what I understood.
I've never heard of a manufacturer not explaining how basic equipment works. A rival will simply buy a car and tear it apart. Owners need to understand the new technology and there's nothing secret about heating/cooling EVs. There are certainly minor differences between manufacturers but I can't image Tesla, BMW, etc. being overly interested in a JLR climate control system.
I preferred not to comment, but I agree 100% with your words. Not answering a question like "is it possible to vent the cabin without messing around with temperature" beats me but I don't want to waste more time on this.
 
#13 ·
Maybe Jaguar has revolutionary A/C-heat pump unit and don't want to attract competition attention ?!?

Just joking but answer of the type "we don't know at the moment, but even when we know we don't tell" is not nice...

Dan, could you and whole Jaguar CRC team understand that many customers for I-Pace are completely different type than "normal" Jaguar customers ?
We don't want to drive "black box", we want to know more, to optimise our using of this superb car not only in terms of speed and luxury, but also "econology", so answer to optimal using of A/C and whether A/C shall be used in winter for energy saving is really important for us...
 
#14 ·
kinemax said:
Maybe Jaguar has revolutionary A/C-heat pump unit and don't want to attract competition attention ?!?

Just joking but answer of the type "we don't know at the moment, but even when we know we don't tell" is not nice...

Dan, could you and whole Jaguar CRC team understand that many customers for I-Pace are completely different type than "normal" Jaguar customers ?
We don't want to drive "black box", we want to know more, to optimise our using of this superb car not only in terms of speed and luxury, but also "econology", so answer to optimal using of A/C and whether A/C shall be used in winter for energy saving is really important for us...
Good Morning Kinemax,

Thank you for your post.

I can confirm that Jaguar Land Rover as a manufacturer does understand the expectations of I-PACE customers, and we endeavour to circulate the latest information available to us across the forum, when it is requested.

In regards to your concern, I have escalated the query within both our Technical and Engineering teams. Unfortunately, the information you require isn't yet available to share without the adequate tests being undertaken first. Whether this information will become available in the future, I am not in a position to say at this time.

I am sorry that I am unable to assist you, should you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me.

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
 
#15 ·
CRC@Jaguar said:
I can confirm that Jaguar Land Rover as a manufacturer does understand the expectations of I-PACE customers, and we endeavour to circulate the latest information available to us across the forum, when it is requested.
The snag with that approach is that we have to know that latest information is available in order to ask for it. If you don't tell us, how do we know to ask? A little more proactivity might be appreciated. ;)
 
#16 ·
I've just looked at the online IPace manual and it states that Aircon (heating and cooling) can be selected independently of other functions, there is also a max aircon setting or just use ambient air to ventilate the cabin, saving energy.
As owners we can learn a lot about the operating principles of the IPace on this forum and with the help of apps like wattcat understand problems, what we cannot do is understand the interconnecting parameters that come into play with every change in setting we might make.
 
#18 ·
Good explanation in the link
Taking it one step further, raising the battery temperature will increase its capacity and therefore range.
Using the Jaguar range calculator raising the temperature from 5 to 20C will give an extra 24 miles range
At an efficiency of 3ml/kwh that's 8kwh. With heat pump efficiency it should easily achieve a gain in range.

However, in the range calculator it shows a loss of range with aircon on, so maybe the gain is only until the battery reaches working temperature. It also show a loss of 30 mile loss of range at low speed but only 7 mile loss at high speed when the aircon is using battery discharge and motor heat to warm the cabin
 
#19 ·
Delta5 said:
Good explanation in the link
Taking it one step further, raising the battery temperature will increase its capacity and therefore range.
Using the Jaguar range calculator raising the temperature from 5 to 20C will give an extra 24 miles range
At an efficiency of 3ml/kwh that's 8kwh. With heat pump efficiency it should easily achieve a gain in range.

However, in the range calculator it shows a loss of range with aircon on, so maybe the gain is only until the battery reaches working temperature. It also show a loss of 30 mile loss of range at low speed but only 7 mile loss at high speed when the aircon is using battery discharge and motor heat to warm the cabin
I don't think AC do anything until you try to cool the cabin, I see no difference on range with AC on/off at low ambient temperatures but I see that GOM range and range impact information give conflicting results.
 
#20 ·
GoneNuts said:
kermit68 said:
JLR informed me that the questions I've asked will not be answered. It seems there is a matter of know how disclosure or at least least this is what I understood.
I've never heard of a manufacturer not explaining how basic equipment works. A rival will simply buy a car and tear it apart. Owners need to understand the new technology and there's nothing secret about heating/cooling EVs. There are certainly minor differences between manufacturers but I can't image Tesla, BMW, etc. being overly interested in a JLR climate control system.
GoneNuts I love your analogy and explanation of the secrecy of the IPace heating and cooling system! LOL

Here's what I'm Guessing - Since I can hear the compressor start and work as it gets head pressure, we know the I Pace uses a heat pump somewhat like the Bev model of the BMW I3 to heat the cabin and maybe the battery. We don't know if the battery gets any heat during normal use of the heater when driving. Also, there may be an emergency element heater on the battery (like the GM Volt) for extreme weather since the heat pump can be limited at very low temperatures.

What would really be helpful to know is how the heat pump is shared with the battery temperature management. When the owner fires up the heat, does the cabin have priority over the battery or is the cabin and battery operate on the same coolant circuit. Another option would be the processor monitors the cabin temperature and after it reaches the requested temp, it opens a coolant valve to share the heat with the battery. What we do know is the cabin and the battery must be controlled separately because when setting a departure, it heats the battery first, then the cabin.
Another option for departure is; the cabin and battery are on the same circuit, then 30 minutes before departure, it might just turn on the cabin fan to begin warming the car. In any case, we need a good spy in the factory to get us some images or better yet, one of the automotive Universities to tear down one of these pups so we could all learn more about how our car really works.

Mike
 
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