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Barthog24 said:
D762466C
My experience, after 18 months of different issues and initial request of returning the car to the dealer and Jaguar direct were refused.
4th September I advised JLR Finance the car was again in a dealer with repeated fault.

24th September offer from JLR F received.

Used CarW## other websites available! local dealer contacted by email. Car found at JLR exact spec I wanted paid a deposit collected New car on 4th October.
JLR F we're brilliant process very clear and quick, in all I had to wait a month from start to collection, had to hire a car for 2 days after mine was collected.
I waited far too long gave the dealer many chance to fix when I should have said enough!
Out of curiosity how much of a refund did you get from JLR F? Did they just agree cancellation of the contract and forfeiture of any sums paid or did they give you anything back?
 
I found JLR finance really good when I sent my car back. They processed the claim really quickly and there was no argument over the issues with the car. They work on a cost per mile figure for use of the car but add on interest on any money paid and also gave me a contribution for loss of use and inconvenience. I ended up getting back everything I paid for the car after 6 months. I would really recommend them for finance and also recommend anyone having a car get a small loan so that you don't end up fighting the dealer or JLR to take the car back.
 
ACB5 said:
I found JLR finance really good when I sent my car back. They processed the claim really quickly and there was no argument over the issues with the car. They work on a cost per mile figure for use of the car but add on interest on any money paid and also gave me a contribution for loss of use and inconvenience. I ended up getting back everything I paid for the car after 6 months. I would really recommend them for finance and also recommend anyone having a car get a small loan so that you don't end up fighting the dealer or JLR to take the car back.
I really want to pay off my PCP now as I have the money to do so and the interest rate is 5.9%. Whilst JLRF/Black Horse are still on the hook for the faulty car (as would a credit card company be if you paid a part of the cost on that), they are likely to feel less committed to a resolution if they have no outstanding balance which worries me a little given the issues I have had this far with the car (which currently appear sorted).

How much did they deduct per mile?
 
They charged 45p per mile which did not seem to unrealistic, this was more than made up for the 8% interest you get on any monies paid towards the car and as I has such a small outstanding balance I was no worse off.
 
ACB5 said:
They charged 45p per mile which did not seem to unrealistic, this was more than made up for the 8% interest you get on any monies paid towards the car and as I has such a small outstanding balance I was no worse off.
Wow, that is very reasonable.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Although I had a fixed appointment with Marshall, on 24th September 2021, to look at the problems with my car's connectivity, I also had a provisional appointment on 1st September 2021, to install some components related to the optional cycle-carrier I had ordered.

Marshall contacted me to say that this wasn't going to happen because the components needed were not going to be available. However, they suggested that they use the appointment to investigate the software problems and, at the very least, try to remove the update "timebomb" that was still waiting to install. I told Marshall that I was happy to go along with this and I pointed out that I had had some further problems with connectivity (Bluetooth pairings and my home wi-fi) and that there was a mysterious charging discrepancy.

I decided that Marshall were doing their best to deal with the problem, which had been created by Jaguar, and I felt that I needed to put some pressure on the manufacturer. I was still unable to get through to Jaguar Customer Relationships, so I emailed Thierry Obellé directly.

I explained to him about the problem with my car, how it had effectively left me stranded without aid and had destroyed my trust in my luxury vehicle. I made it clear that anything to do with software was entirely Jaguar's responsibility and it was unacceptable for them to dump it onto the dealership.

I also pointed out that Jaguar had committed to an "All-Electric Future" and to achieve this, they needed I-Pace owners onside. We, the I-Pace owners, are Jaguar's "Electric Cheerleaders". No matter how much good publicity Jaguar garners from Formula E or how much clever advertising Jaguar buys, their future sale of all EVs depends on I-Pace owners telling the world how good Jaguar is (or isn't).

I arrived early for my 10o'clock appointment. I was greeted by Marshall's service coordinator who explained that they had been contacted by Jaguar and had been given a service schedule, which ought to sort out the connectivity and TCU issues. They thought that this might also fix the charging discrepancy.

They settled me down in a comfy armchair with a bottomless coffee-pot and a plate of biscuits. Almost immediately, my mobile rang and I was talking to a chap from Jaguar's Executive Office. He said that he had taken personal charge of my case and was about to contact Marshall to brief them on what needed to happen. I told him that the person he was about to contact was sitting 10ft from me, so make the call and I could listen to the conversation.

My car went into the workshop and about 90mins later reappeared. The coordinator said that everything had been fixed to Jaguar's satisfaction, the software had been updated from 2.1.0a to 2.1.3 and the charging discrepancy had gone.

I've waited 48hrs before posting this, just to make sure that nothing else would go wrong. All appears to be OK and I believe that my beloved I-Pace is back with me.
 
Although I had a fixed appointment with Marshall, on 24th September 2021, to look at the problems with my car's connectivity, I also had a provisional appointment on 1st September 2021, to install some components related to the optional cycle-carrier I had ordered.

Marshall contacted me to say that this wasn't going to happen because the components needed were not going to be available. However, they suggested that they use the appointment to investigate the software problems and, at the very least, try to remove the update "timebomb" that was still waiting to install. I told Marshall that I was happy to go along with this and I pointed out that I had had some further problems with connectivity (Bluetooth pairings and my home wi-fi) and that there was a mysterious charging discrepancy.

I decided that Marshall were doing their best to deal with the problem, which had been created by Jaguar, and I felt that I needed to put some pressure on the manufacturer. I was still unable to get through to Jaguar Customer Relationships, so I emailed Thierry Obellé directly.

I explained to him about the problem with my car, how it had effectively left me stranded without aid and had destroyed my trust in my luxury vehicle. I made it clear that anything to do with software was entirely Jaguar's responsibility and it was unacceptable for them to dump it onto the dealership.

I also pointed out that Jaguar had committed to an "All-Electric Future" and to achieve this, they needed I-Pace owners onside. We, the I-Pace owners, are Jaguar's "Electric Cheerleaders". No matter how much good publicity Jaguar garners from Formula E or how much clever advertising Jaguar buys, their future sale of all EVs depends on I-Pace owners telling the world how good Jaguar is (or isn't).

I arrived early for my 10o'clock appointment. I was greeted by Marshall's service coordinator who explained that they had been contacted by Jaguar and had been given a service schedule, which ought to sort out the connectivity and TCU issues. They thought that this might also fix the charging discrepancy.

They settled me down in a comfy armchair with a bottomless coffee-pot and a plate of biscuits. Almost immediately, my mobile rang and I was talking to a chap from Jaguar's Executive Office. He said that he had taken personal charge of my case and was about to contact Marshall to brief them on what needed to happen. I told him that the person he was about to contact was sitting 10ft from me, so make the call and I could listen to the conversation.

My car went into the workshop and about 90mins later reappeared. The coordinator said that everything had been fixed to Jaguar's satisfaction, the software had been updated from 2.1.0a to 2.1.3 and the charging discrepancy had gone.

I've waited 48hrs before posting this, just to make sure that nothing else would go wrong. All appears to be OK and I believe that my beloved I-Pace is back with me.
Good morning Dave,

Thank you for your post.

While I am concerned to learn of your experience, I am happy to hear a resolution to your concerns was met.

Should you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me and I would be more than happy to help.

Many Thanks,

Dan - Jaguar UK
 
I have an iPace which is just 2 months out of warranty. I have just had a similar experience when I downloaded a software update and drove a couple of miles to do some shopping. When I came back to the car it was completely dead and would not start. Nothing was working and it was in a comatose position. After contacting the dealer, they suggested leaving it half an hour and trying again as I may have interru the download. This did Not work and I contacted the dealer again and there was no further help. I ended up getting a special recovery truck out and deliver the car to the dealer. Because the recovery had to use special equipment, it cost £450. When it arrived at the dealer, they phoned to say they would have to do a diagnostic check and it would be 2 weeks before they could do this.
The diagnostic check will cost a further £180. Earlier this year, when it was still under warranty, I had more issues with the in control system and also water ingress from the front windscreen. It took several weeks and endless calls to JLR to get this sorted. It is the worst car I have ever had for reliability and I would not recommend an iPace to anyone. When it is running ok, it is a great car to drive, but quality of build and reliability are sadly lacking. JLR are very poorly rated overall for reliability and this is well deserved in my experience.
 
I have an iPace which is just 2 months out of warranty. I have just had a similar experience when I downloaded a software update and drove a couple of miles to do some shopping. When I came back to the car it was completely dead and would not start. Nothing was working and it was in a comatose position. After contacting the dealer, they suggested leaving it half an hour and trying again as I may have interru the download. This did Not work and I contacted the dealer again and there was no further help. I ended up getting a special recovery truck out and deliver the car to the dealer. Because the recovery had to use special equipment, it cost £450. When it arrived at the dealer, they phoned to say they would have to do a diagnostic check and it would be 2 weeks before they could do this.
The diagnostic check will cost a further £180. Earlier this year, when it was still under warranty, I had more issues with the in control system and also water ingress from the front windscreen. It took several weeks and endless calls to JLR to get this sorted. It is the worst car I have ever had for reliability and I would not recommend an iPace to anyone. When it is running ok, it is a great car to drive, but quality of build and reliability are sadly lacking. JLR are very poorly rated overall for reliability and this is well deserved in my experience.
It's so sad to read about your experience. I also want to say thank for telling about your bad experience with JLR in this detail as well. It will give a help to those who are thinking about to buy or use it.
 
Discussion starter · #30 · (Edited)
I’m amazed that this thread is still going. I lost interest in anything Jaguar related more than a year ago.

I finished my story with everything apparently sorted — but that didn’t last. Within two weeks it was back in the workshop for the first of many visits. The dealers, who were very helpful, couldn’t do anything but keep reloading software and Jaguar wasn’t doing anything to help.

One Friday evening in September ‘21 I parked on my driveway and, unbeknownst to me, the TCU had failed again. The next morning I drove to The Kop Hill Climb and in the afternoon I set off for home.

As I approached a T-Junction I backed off the accelerator, expecting to get 75% regen braking. Instead the computer gave me instantaneous FULL POWER! My left foot was on the floor and by the time I got my right foot onto the brake I was already halfway across the major road.

I mounted the kerb on the far side, ricocheted off a lamppost, slid down an embankment onto a slip road and demolished two parked cars. As I lay there stunned and surrounded by airbags, the much vaunted “Jaguar Assist” failed to work (because it depends on the TCU) and that also prevented me from getting a mobile phone signal.

I was helped out of the car by passers-by who called the Police, Fire Brigade and Ambulance.

My insurance company retrieved the car from the breakers that the Police sent it to: Jaguar insisted I deliver it to their workshop (at my expense) so they could work out how to deny responsibility. I did not see why I should comply with their request.

Fortunately, my insurers agreed to write off the car and pay me full value minus some depreciation. I was alive and needed to get back on the road so I accepted the offer. Allowing for some uncovered dealer options, warranty costs and other extras, I finished up about 10k out of pocket. I have had no further contact with Jaguar — life really is too short.

Jaguar like to promote the I-Pace as a high-tech, computerised SUV/GT. Getting a computer to automate processes and decisions is a great idea — as long as a human retains overall control. However, making a computer autonomous is the dumbest thing a design engineer can do: the aviation industry has learned that the hard way. As far as I am concerned the I-Pace is about as safe as a Boeing 737-MAX.

I now own a Kia Sorento PHEV, which has given over a year of reliable motoring. I will never climb into a computer-controlled Jaguar again.

In the near future I intend to buy a Kia EV6 GT, which is an I-Pace+ that actually works.
 
I’m amazed that this thread is still going. I lost interest in anything Jaguar related more than a year ago.

I finished my story with everything apparently sorted — but that didn’t last. Within two weeks it was back in the workshop for the first of many visits. The dealers, who were very helpful, couldn’t do anything but keep reloading software and Jaguar wasn’t doing anything to help.

One Friday evening in September ‘21 I parked on my driveway and, unbeknownst to me, the TCU had failed again. The next morning I drove to The Kop Hill Climb and in the afternoon I set off for home.

As I approached a T-Junction I backed off the accelerator, expecting to get 75% regen braking. Instead the computer gave me instantaneous FULL POWER! My left foot was on the floor and by the time I got my right foot onto the brake I was already halfway across the major road.

I mounted the kerb on the far side, ricocheted off a lamppost, slid down an embankment onto a slip road and demolished two parked cars. As I lay there stunned and surrounded by airbags, the much vaunted “Jaguar Assist” failed to work (because it depends on the TCU) and that also prevented me from getting a mobile phone signal.

I was helped out of the car by passers-by who called the Police, Fire Brigade and Ambulance.

My insurance company retrieved the car from the breakers that the Police sent it to: Jaguar insisted I deliver it to their workshop (at my expense) so they could work out how to deny responsibility. I did not see why I should comply with their request.

Fortunately, my insurers agreed to write off the car and pay me full value minus some depreciation. I was alive and needed to get back on the road so I accepted the offer. Allowing for some uncovered dealer options, warranty costs and other extras, I finished up about 10k out of pocket. I have had no further contact with Jaguar — life really is too short.

Jaguar like to promote the I-Pace as a high-tech, computerised SUV/GT. Getting a computer to automate processes and decisions is a great idea — as long as a human retains overall control. However, making a computer autonomous is the dumbest thing a design engineer can do: the aviation industry has learned that the hard way. As far as I am concerned the I-Pace is about as safe as a Boeing 737-MAX.

I now own a Kia Sorento PHEV, which has given over a year of reliable motoring. I will never climb into a computer-controlled Jaguar again.

In the near future I intend to buy a Kia EV6 GT, which is an I-Pace+ that actually works.
What a horrific experience. There is a lot to comment on but I won't, other than to say I think you might be surprised how many cars are now not directly controlled by a mechanically foot actuated throttle. Modern cars have something like 100-150 electronic control units (depending on how you define them) and nearly all of those have some element of software. The second hand value of modern cars will plummet compared to older cars that could be kept functional by a general mechanic. Because of the lack of long term support and huge expense that the manufacturers and dealers will charge, it will be daft to keep them going. Illegitimate workers may be able to get various units to work again and may be able to sell dodgy, scrapped or unchecked parts back to us but then our cars may be even more unsafe and unreliable. As an electronics engineer in a different field I am appalled by the lack of diagnostic information available to the owner (yes, the person who paid tens of thousands for ownership of the product) with regard to modern cars, and that so few people care. This wouldn't be so bad if there were experts at every dealership, but there are not. It is likely only regulators can change this as no manufacturer will voluntarily share information in case it prevents them from being able to lie themselves out of liability.

I am not sure how you established when the TCU failed or why you think this Telematics (communications) Control Unit affects the acceleration of the car. (Though the faults you experienced could have a common cause.) TCU can refer to a 'Transmission Control Unit' but, from what you say earlier, I do not think that is what is being referred to. I get the impression that you have been told a certain amount of guff and you may have assumed a bit more (no insult intended - you are not the technical expert so nobody expects otherwise). If the earlier fault you experienced was a symptom of the final throw then it is evidence that faults should not just be 'reset' and job done. "Dunno what happened gov, but it looks ok now." They must be diagnosed. The more complex the electronics get, the more intermittent faults there will be but, without onboard diagnostic logging computers logging every detail of what the car does, and an understanding of what those mean, and that technical detail being easily available, faults will go unfixed. In my opinion, modern cars are far too complex for their primary function or for the support procedures in place, with far too little information available to the user.

Regarding the 737-max, I believe the problem was that a sensor had failed along with a software design flaw. No fail-safe. No use of redundancy. There were two angle of attack sensors but the software was written to only look at one. The computer control repeatedly tried to erroneously adjust with no easy way for a pilot to diagnose the fault and turn off that part of the functionality. This last statement could be said for every modern car as far as I know because no car reviewer or magazine understands its importance.
 
Discussion starter · #32 · (Edited)
Hi jpa99,

I wasn’t implying that the TCU (Telematics Control Unit) caused the accident. It’s just that all my communications with JLR (as opposed to the dealer) were about the TCU and it’s tendency to go into a coma, although there were plenty of other faults. You mention onboard diagnostic logging and I believe that the TCU is involved in this.

The last thing the TCU communicated to the outside world was that it was sitting on my driveway (in South Oxfordshire) on the Friday night. The next communication (through the MyPace app) was when it woke up in a breaker’s yard near Chippenham, three weeks later. It had no idea how it got there but it had managed to diagnose that it was critically injured.

My reference to the B737-MAX was considered. I spent 37 years in commercial aviation and I have flown most variants of the B737 although I never flew the MAX. I specialised in air safety, including computer control of aircraft, and I have considerable knowledge of air-accident investigation procedures and trying to isolate a computer’s misbehaviour. Computer control of an aircraft is erroneously referred to as “Fly-By-Wire”: it should be called “Fly-By-Software”.

Your description of the MAX problem is spot on but we must also include the attitude of the manufacturers and their Safety Philosophy. As you point out, the need to “Think Safe“ must be mandated by external regulators: the manufacturers, left to their own devices, will always take the cheapest option. It’s not that they are deliberately dangerous — it’s just that they assume, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, that an autonomous computer (even when it has a software fault) must know better than a flaky human.

My best (Occam’s Razor) guess about the cause of the accident is an intermittent fault in the transducer that measures the accelerator pedal position. However, it could just as easily be a bug in the software. We’ll never know and, frankly, I no longer care. I’m too old to be “The New Ralph Nader”.
 
Each of the up to 44 control modules in the I-PACE have their own capture of the faults it detects and important information at the time of the fault. The TCU is not doing this for all modules. It only does this for itself.
 
My best guess about the cause of the accident is an intermittent fault in the transducer that measures the accelerator pedal position. However, it could just as easily be a bug in the software. We’ll never know.
Humans can make mistakes or have faulty logic sometimes as well. The difference is that it is difficult to hook up the human to some type of diagnostic tool and get anything definitive from either the programming or the stored data.
 
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