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DC charging speed sudden drop

8K views 14 replies 10 participants last post by  urbanipace 
#1 ·
Dear Dan,
many I PaAce owners observed a strange behaviour while charging at 100+ Kw chargers (mainly Ionity). Under favourable cirumstances (warm temperatures, inital low SoC) the initial charging speed is a little over 100 Kw with current in the range of 250A. Then, after 2 / 3 minutes, the current drops suddently to 200A and therefore the charging speed at 80 / 82 Kw depending on the voltage value.
Is that a normal behaviour, triggered by BMS or could it be a problem with CCS2 communication back switching to CCS1 protocol which is 200A limited ?
 
#3 ·
Good Afternoon Kermit68,

Thank you for your post.

After taking the opportunity to raise your question with our Technical Team I can confirm the following information

The key element in addressing your concern, is when 'favourable conditions' such as 'warm temperature, low initial SoC' are considered.

A warm temperature is likely to be unfavourable when it comes to charging. The Battery Charger Control Moduel (BCCM) determines how long it will support a 250A charge based on the initial start temperature as the conductors become hot during 100kw delivery. As a result, it can be expected and is very likely to have moved back to its standard 200A limit after a few minutes, to protect itself thermally.

The true 'favourable conditions' are a cool temperature, low SoC and warm battery to achieve a sustained 100kw charge.

I hope this has answered your query. Should you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me further.

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
 
#4 ·
CRC@Jaguar said:
The true 'favourable conditions' are a cool temperature, low SoC and warm battery to achieve a sustained 100kw charge.
Dan - Jaguar UK
Thank you Dan for the answer - can Jaguar then please advise how quickly there will be a software update to allow the battery to be preheated while driving prior to arriving to a charging station.
A software update that Tesla made to all their cars early 2019 resulting in quicker charging times.

Jaguar has currently developed a BMS that by design will almost never allow sustained 100kW charging.
* Battery must be 25 degrees which is only possible if the outside temperature is high or when you just left home after pre-heating the battery while connected to AC charger. Problem is that it generally takes at least 2 hours to get to a low SoC %.
* It must be cool conditions else the BMS will max amps to 200 to protect the conductors

So either it is to warm for the conductors to support 250amps or too cold for the battery to be at the right temperature to start with 250amps. Upgrading the conductors is not possible so the easiest/best solution is to pre-heat the battery while driving to the charging station.

Also makes me question why Jaguar just didn't install higher quality conductors that can more easily support sustained 250 amp charging.
Tesla's, E-tron and Taycan are all charging at or above 300 amps without degrading their batteries more.
 
#5 ·
Jelle v/d Meer said:
CRC@Jaguar said:
The true 'favourable conditions' are a cool temperature, low SoC and warm battery to achieve a sustained 100kw charge.
Dan - Jaguar UK
Thank you Dan for the answer - can Jaguar then please advise how quickly there will be a software update to allow the battery to be preheated while driving prior to arriving to a charging station.
A software update that Tesla made to all their cars early 2019 resulting in quicker charging times.

Jaguar has currently developed a BMS that by design will almost never allow sustained 100kW charging.
* Battery must be 25 degrees which is only possible if the outside temperature is high or when you just left home after pre-heating the battery while connected to AC charger. Problem is that it generally takes at least 2 hours to get to a low SoC %.
* It must be cool conditions else the BMS will max amps to 200 to protect the conductors

So either it is to warm for the conductors to support 250amps or too cold for the battery to be at the right temperature to start with 250amps. Upgrading the conductors is not possible so the easiest/best solution is to pre-heat the battery while driving to the charging station.

Also makes me question why Jaguar just didn't install higher quality conductors that can more easily support sustained 250 amp charging.
Tesla's, E-tron and Taycan are all charging at or above 300 amps without degrading their batteries more.
I would add that a key differentiator between pouch cell batteries choosen by JLR and cylindrical cell batteries selected by Tesla is the cell déformation under heat which is more important with pouch cells design
 
#6 ·
Hi Dan, thanks for your quick answer.
While I understand your technical explaination, I don't get how JLR will be ever in a position to deliver 0-80% charge in 40 minutes as advertised. You are reporting to us us that warm temperatures are unfavourable. Whats JLR idea of warm temperature? Because the last time I charged at a Ionity it was 4°C and the battery temperature was optimal after 200 Km at highway speed (130 km/h or more). I got the usual behavior, 2/3 minutes at 250A and then back to 200A. Now if 4°C is too warm I can't immagine what will happen this summer.
Also, as somebody already pointed out, it seems the optimal charging condition will never happen as it has to be cold enough to keep the conductors cold but at the same time warm enough to allow the battery to be @25°C. And this leads back to my doubt: will it ever be possibile to charge 0-80% in 40 minutes?
 
#7 ·
kermit68 said:
And this leads back to my doubt: will it ever be possibile to charge 0-80% in 40 minutes?
Give Jaguar a random car and let them prove that it is possible.
For all others it has never been possible. And the optimal condition is so special that it will never occour for any of us.
I hate being ripped of and lied to. And here I've bought a car that never will be able to do what it supposed to, and what the manufacturer said.
Or prove me wrong. Please!!!
 
#8 ·
FENorway said:
kermit68 said:
And this leads back to my doubt: will it ever be possibile to charge 0-80% in 40 minutes?
Give Jaguar a random car and let them prove that it is possible.
For all others it has never been possible. And the optimal condition is so special that it will never occour for any of us.
I hate being ripped of and lied to. And here I've bought a car that never will be able to do what it supposed to, and what the manufacturer said.
Or prove me wrong. Please!!!
👏👏👏
 
#9 ·
this is quite an amazing and disturbing admission by JLR - that it can only be ultra-rapid charged under ideal conditions. This is an issue which needs to raised in the press in order to get JLR to address the issue. I expect that when a bunch of iPace owners head on holiday this summer there will be a storm of complaints about the slow en-route charging affecting the journeys. I have already had this issue twice at BP Ultrafast chargers.
 
#10 ·
urbanipace said:
this is quite an amazing and disturbing admission by JLR - that it can only be ultra-rapid charged under ideal conditions. This is an issue which needs to raised in the press in order to get JLR to address the issue. I expect that when a bunch of iPace owners head on holiday this summer there will be a storm of complaints about the slow en-route charging affecting the journeys. I have already had this issue twice at BP Ultrafast chargers.
This is not exclusive to I-Pace. It's pretty normal behaviour for EVs, just down to basic battery chemistry. As a great man once said, "ye cannae change the laws o physics".
 
#11 ·
It's interesting that the temperature of the conductors has been raised even 100 amps is a lot of current to put through an easily attached plug like CCC. Any wear, contamination or poor material will cause overheating and eventually burning out, the Porsche is less susceptible because it uses 800v, so in theory can charge twice as fast with the same conductor
 
#12 ·
Abu Dhabi Dude said:
urbanipace said:
this is quite an amazing and disturbing admission by JLR - that it can only be ultra-rapid charged under ideal conditions. This is an issue which needs to raised in the press in order to get JLR to address the issue. I expect that when a bunch of iPace owners head on holiday this summer there will be a storm of complaints about the slow en-route charging affecting the journeys. I have already had this issue twice at BP Ultrafast chargers.
This is not exclusive to I-Pace. It's pretty normal behaviour for EVs, just down to basic battery chemistry. As a great man once said, "ye cannae change the laws o physics".
Both my brother and sister have e-trons. Their cars delivers the promised 150kw time after time. Consistent over a broad SOC-range and without any trick. Yes it sometimes need some minutes ramping up in the cold, but they are totally in another league.
From 10-90% they need roughly half of timr time charging compared to the Jaguar.
Not to mention the Taycan and the Model 3...

And BTW. Is it OK that Jaguar don't deliver just because any other doesn't?
 
#13 ·
Abu Dhabi Dude said:
urbanipace said:
this is quite an amazing and disturbing admission by JLR - that it can only be ultra-rapid charged under ideal conditions. This is an issue which needs to raised in the press in order to get JLR to address the issue. I expect that when a bunch of iPace owners head on holiday this summer there will be a storm of complaints about the slow en-route charging affecting the journeys. I have already had this issue twice at BP Ultrafast chargers.
This is not exclusive to I-Pace. It's pretty normal behaviour for EVs, just down to basic battery chemistry. As a great man once said, "ye cannae change the laws o physics".
"She'll no hold together much longer, Captain."
 
#14 ·
urbanipace said:
this is quite an amazing and disturbing admission by JLR - that it can only be ultra-rapid charged under ideal conditions. This is an issue which needs to raised in the press in order to get JLR to address the issue. I expect that when a bunch of iPace owners head on holiday this summer there will be a storm of complaints about the slow en-route charging affecting the journeys. I have already had this issue twice at BP Ultrafast chargers.
Hi, whats your ipace model? How long have you had it? I see you are in Oxford, close to me. I'd be really interested to hear your owner experiance. Mine hasn't arrived yet.

Love to see a picture of yours.
 
#15 ·
Hiya,

I have a an SE with the panoroof, on Corris Grey with Ivory Interior. its been with me since last September and I love it. The charging network is a bit of frustration but the its the best handling EV unless you can afford a Taycan. I bought mine from Marshalls at Milton Gate who as good as most car dealers, so not much to recommend but they do the job. I have had no problems at all and the car seems well built, range is 200 miles in normal driving. it need to be driven very carefully to exceed that.
 
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