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To be fair, Tesla opening up their charger could be a possible solution at most, but you can't say it's a problem that Tesla doesn't.

The problem is, as Sikko says, the lack of 3-phase charging, the poor real life range compared to the communicated WLTP of 470KM and the absence (still) of 100KW charging (also promised 12 months ago). As far as the WLTP is concerned, very very careful high-way driving will not get you close to 75% of the communicated WLTP.

I am happy to accept the issues with SOTA and tons of other things as being normal issues with a new product and I am sure these will get better. However, I am not happy to with the gap I see for the core attributes of an EV: range and charging speed, the gap between reality and promised. What makes it worse, is the poor communication and follow-up on these topics by Jaguar.

I do not regret my choice for a Jaguar (there are positives as well although my back always hurt as I can't get the lumbar-support set correctly) but I would not choose one again nor do I advice a Jaguar to my friends/colleagues.

As we can't change the car's range much (I assume), the solutions have to come from a better charging plan. For example,
  • will 3-phase charging become available to MY19 cars,
  • will Jaguar actively contribute to improve the charging infrastructure,
  • will there be a better (usable!) integration between the Nav System and the available Charging Infrastructure (no idea why I only get to see 2 or 3 of the Fastned stations in NL and only 2 Ionity in germany but maybe that is my set-up).

Especially the latter is annoying and I envy my Tesla colleagues for this so if someone has a solution for that, please!

@Dan, I am happy to share my VIN etc with you if you want.
 
Chewy said:
Willster said:
i think you will find the main problem is that Tesla have not opened up their charging points to all!! This is something that the EU/UK (don't get me started on the B word) need to enforce. If Elon is really that keen on changing the world then he would do it anyhow. Having said that 160 miles with 61 left on the gom is nothing to grumble at driving at normal speeds on a combined route.
Tesla has always said that if other manufacturers are prepared to help with the installation and running of the Superchargers then they would open them up. BMW were talking to them at one time. I have asked Jaguar, but no reply. At the moment, Model S and Model X owners have paid for the Superchargers as part of the higher price they paid for their cars.
Why would Jaguar, Audi or Mercedes have to pay (or help maintain it) Tesla for their customers to use the Supercharger network - that is complete and utter nonsense and pure political play of Elon. Did Tesla pay anything in the last years to Ionity, Allego or Fastned for the use of their network - NO it didn't nor should they.

The user should pay for the usage (Tesla likely will come up with very high rates) - Tesla should be forced to open their superchargers network but they can charge the user for using it the same way Ionity, Fastned and other operators do it.
 
CRC@Jaguar said:
Sikko said:
I could not agree more with Jelle. The charging situation on the I-Pace realy sucks. The promised 100kW I have never seen on any fast charger, the best I achieved was 65Kw, which dropped already at 50% charge level. The single phase AC charging makes the whole situation even worse, destination charging is no option. The fact that in NL there are not enough fast chargers and the role out of Ionity chargers keeps on slipping, makes this car at most a very expensive "city car", completely unsuitable for long distance travel. In the 4 years I drove Tesla I never had to wait at any charging station including the heavily used Amsterdam supercharger. With FastNed the chance you have to wait is over 70%. When is Jaguar going to listen to their customers and offer a 3 phase AC charging upgrade? What is Jaguar doing to increase the availability of fast chargers in Europe. Why does Jaguar communicate so poorly with their customers? Stop with bullshitting about WLTP measurements, face reality be honest to your customers an provide solutions to make this a practical EV which is a genuine Tesla competitor.
Good Morning Sikko

Thank you for your post.

I am concerned to learn of your comments and sorry to hear that you feel that way towards the brand.

If you would like me to escalate your concerns then I would be more than happy to pass your details on to the relevant Customer Experience Centre for your country of residence.

Please may I request that you send me the following details via PM:

Your Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)
Your personal contact details

Many Thanks

Dan - Jaguar UK
Very good points Sikko, especially "...makes this car at most a very expensive"city car"....."

I first (tried to) order an iPace in September 2018, but the dealer experience and customer service was so appalling I didn't complete and walked out.
I placed (the same) order at another dealership in October.

Since then I have postponed/deferred my production slot twice because of the horrendous issues (many reported on these forums), and in the hope that things would rapidly get better.

I pushed delivery back until after the Summer, nearly 1 year after I first walked in to place the order, and today I am still only about 50% confident I will follow this through.

The one thing that would convince me would be to see the company taking some corporate responsibility for the mess they have created, and communicating with their customers (owners) and potential customers their recovery and improvement plan.

Without that, I just don't have any confidence that this car is ever going to get sufficiently better to justify throwing 100,000 Euros at it. If it doesn't get better then its residuals will be awful, as there will be plenty of better cars coming to market in the next 3-4 years.

Before I release my own order for a current iPace I need to see:
- 100kW charging
- main car bugs fully resolved (all the black screen stuff, unexplained shutdowns, return to dealer etc)
- charging features available as they were advertised (timed charging, max charge level etc)
I would also take the gamble if 3p AC charging was to become available.

I really really want to buy this car but Jaguar are managing very successfully to create reasons for me not to, and at some point in time I may just give up, or there will be a very good alternative from a competitor.

Jaguar are really not being very clever in this developing, highly competitive market.
 
You really can't blame Jaguar for the difference between WLTP and actual range. The test is the test and we have no reason to believe that JLR we're guilty of a VW style deception. The WLTP test is not a good one for EV range testing. The US EPA test gives a more accurate figure. JLR has to conduct the WLTP test and they have to publish that range for sale in Europe. They have no choice and it's not their fault.

I agree that 100kw charging should be working though. It is disappointing that most people seem to be limited to 80 (with a very few exceptions). However, the step up to 100 won't necessarily produce the sort of difference that people expect. Same for almost every EV on the market. It's a very complex algorithm to produce an actual charging time. The general public (as opposed to EV enthusiasts) don't want to see anything that complex, so every manufacturer produces a time for charging to keep it simple. Much like range, if you start saying "well in zero degrees it will do this, but with these wheels it will do this but on a 2 degree incline with these wheels it will do this but at 50mph it will do this but.....". It's too difficult to convey it. And all it will likely do is put people off making the change to EVs. I'll be honest and say it might have put me off. And I am so glad I have an I-pace.
 
Goshdarnit said:
You really can't blame Jaguar for the difference between WLTP and actual range. The test is the test and we have no reason to believe that JLR we're guilty of a VW style deception. The WLTP test is not a good one for EV range testing. The US EPA test gives a more accurate figure. JLR has to conduct the WLTP test and they have to publish that range for sale in Europe. They have no choice and it's not their fault.

I agree that 100kw charging should be working though. It is disappointing that most people seem to be limited to 80 (with a very few exceptions). However, the step up to 100 won't necessarily produce the sort of difference that people expect. Same for almost every EV on the market. It's a very complex algorithm to produce an actual charging time. The general public (as opposed to EV enthusiasts) don't want to see anything that complex, so every manufacturer produces a time for charging to keep it simple. Much like range, if you start saying "well in zero degrees it will do this, but with these wheels it will do this but on a 2 degree incline with these wheels it will do this but at 50mph it will do this but.....". It's too difficult to convey it. And all it will likely do is put people off making the change to EVs. I'll be honest and say it might have put me off. And I am so glad I have an I-pace.
Oh I absolutely blame Jaguar because Jaguar falsely presented urban range as the official range instead of the combined range which is considerably lower.

Car manufacturers must either report combined or both Urban and Highway and they just mentioned 480km without specifying it was ONLY Urban.
 
Ok I hadn't twigged that fact. I know I'm the early days they had quoted 300 miles only, but that was before the WLTP test was done. I thought I'd seen the two figures since the test was done but I clearly got the wrong.
 
Goshdarnit said:
I agree that 100kw charging should be working though. It is disappointing that most people seem to be limited to 80 (with a very few exceptions). However, the step up to 100 won't necessarily produce the sort of difference that people expect. a
Jaguar advertised with 0-80% in 40 minutes! The reality is that in best case it is now 55 minutes and with the Fastned update it will be 48 minutes.

With Easter I will travel 3,000km in 4 days - time lost easily exceeds 2 hours.
 
Billy Bunter said:
Very good points Sikko, especially "...makes this car at most a very expensive"city car"....."

I first (tried to) order an iPace in September 2018, but the dealer experience and customer service was so appalling I didn't complete and walked out.
I placed (the same) order at another dealership in October.

Since then I have postponed/deferred my production slot twice because of the horrendous issues (many reported on these forums), and in the hope that things would rapidly get better.

I pushed delivery back until after the Summer, nearly 1 year after I first walked in to place the order, and today I am still only about 50% confident I will follow this through.

The one thing that would convince me would be to see the company taking some corporate responsibility for the mess they have created, and communicating with their customers (owners) and potential customers their recovery and improvement plan.

Without that, I just don't have any confidence that this car is ever going to get sufficiently better to justify throwing 100,000 Euros at it. If it doesn't get better then its residuals will be awful, as there will be plenty of better cars coming to market in the next 3-4 years.

Before I release my own order for a current iPace I need to see:
- 100kW charging
- main car bugs fully resolved (all the black screen stuff, unexplained shutdowns, return to dealer etc)
- charging features available as they were advertised (timed charging, max charge level etc)
I would also take the gamble if 3p AC charging was to become available.

I really really want to buy this car but Jaguar are managing very successfully to create reasons for me not to, and at some point in time I may just give up, or there will be a very good alternative from a competitor.

Jaguar are really not being very clever in this developing, highly competitive market.
Ugghh... Where to begin?
There are few cities big enough for a 100 mile EV to be considered a city car. Nor a 245 mile city car (city range on I-Pace easily exceeded).
Unless you live somewhere like Mexico, lacking DCFC chargers isn't a problem except in advertising claims.
An expensive city car is a Lamborghini Huracan. Since most people buy them to be seen, and they have a short range, they seldom venture far out of the city.

The internet magnifies problems. Few posters join a site and say, "My car runs great". They just read the site for the info they need. People with problems (all car sites) post looking for solutions or to blow off steam. Mine has been more than acceptable since November with an average of 3 drives a day. More than 70% of the miles are business. I love driving it, it's fun.

People who are fiscally responsible don't buy expensive cars except collector cars for investments that are seldom if ever driven.

You need to see 150kW+ chargers to take full advantage of any 108S higher voltage car. They are being rolled out, but aren't widely available.

Cars with no electronic bugs are called Antiques. They have mechanical issues only.

Timed charging works now. I do it each day. JLR engineers say charge to 100% unless you are doing long term storage. It's non-engineers who worry.

All 3ph charging is, is 3 single phase AC->DC inverters with additional cooling, weight, space, and cost. It's not fast charging. Listen to folk who plug into DCFC stations that are 25kW for some insight.

The I-Pace is indeed a 'clever' car. It's a all-season, all-terrain, performance sedan with headroom and nice seats for the passengers, and decent trunk/storage areas. It handles great, has dynamic suspension (no EV has this yet), a programmable HUD, 360 view, is comfy, doesn't look cheap inside, and has all the modern safety technologies. It's a great executive sedan. I prefer it to more the expensive executive version of our CT6. Well, digital rearview is something all cars should have but few do. Night vision has limited uses, but can be handy in certain situations. All wheel steering is really only needed on very long wheelbase cars for parking. Neat stuff, but not sure raising the price of the I-Pace another $10,000 is a good idea yet.

I've driven a lot of cars in the last million miles, and so far the I-Pace fits my daily driver needs the best. It's not the most expensive, the largest or smallest, or even the most bells and whistles. It's just comfy and fun for me, and very relaxing for highway travel.

I suggest a Tesla Model S 100D for you. While it won't actually solve your issues, it's advertising is better, and that is what is important. Yes, people have trouble with their Model S cars too,
 
To cheer everybody up I would mention this very interesting interview of the Magna International CEO , that is building the I-Pace in Graz and is
also partnering in autonomous vehicles ( hardware and software ) with Waymo and Lyft and specializing in electric power trains ..
My point is : JLR is not alone to solve our issues , there is also Magna ( hopefully )

 
McRat said:
I suggest a Tesla Model S 100D for you. While it won't actually solve your issues, it's advertising is better, and that is what is important. Yes, people have trouble with their Model S cars too.
Owning a Tesla MS85 for a couple of years and the I-Pace since December. I have put 10,000 miles on the I-Pace and maybe 200 or 300 on the Tesla in that time.

Think you can all work out which I prefer now.

The I-Pace is, in my opinion, the best car powered by an electric drivetrain on the planet. I moan about the software, but this is slowly improving. Battery management appears to be far superior to the Tesla, and range is better due to the slightly larger battery.

Jaguar themselves have to better understand their customers and provide more information about what is going on, the SOTA mess being a fine example.
 
I agree. Their big weakness is communications. The CRC account here is some help, but I think their hands are tied with what they are allowed to tell us. If they could fix their communications I think they'd find a loyal customer base willing to help them with testing and feedback.
 
Goshdarnit said:
I agree. Their big weakness is communications. The CRC account here is some help, but I think their hands are tied with what they are allowed to tell us. If they could fix their communications I think they'd find a loyal customer base willing to help them with testing and feedback.
do we really think the CRC presence here is helpful ?
I'm not sure I can remember a single, useful response to any of the serious issues raised, and personally find it infuriating and condescending when I see their packaged answer "......if you send me a PM with your VIN I will ensure it gets raised with the appropriate team....".

All that does is take any further discussion out of the public domain and puts it back behind closed doors, so I don't see that 'presence' as at all useful to this forum.

Before I joined this forum I had never experienced Jaguar CRC, and had a very open mind about the car and about Jaguar as a company.
- I've learned a lot about the car from forum members, but nothing from Jaguar.
- My opinion about Jaguar as a company and about CRC as a customer focussed support has changed from open-mind/neutral to one where I regard CRC as useless (at best), and the company as hopelessly out of touch with its customers and potential customers.
So I think their presence here is at best pointless, at worst it actually damages the brand reputation.
 
Yes, it's frustrating that almost no one has achieved close to the quoted range, I do feel for people who didn't do any research and took the adverts at their word and expected to nail that number every trip.

What I'm personally frustrated at are the comments around efficiency compared to other cars and brands, If you purchased a Jaguar expected to get one of the most fuel efficient cars on the market then more the FOOL you and you clearly didn't understand the brand you were buying!

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Jaguar has never gone to market with the strapline the most fuel-efficient car in its class... EVER!

Jaguar is all about great styling, the drive and the way the car makes you feel, that's why Jaguar has so many cars that have endured and become classics while its fuel-efficient competitors were scraped and crushed long ago.

Sorry if this seems like a rant, but Jaguar has remained constant and stood behind their mission statement, if they tried to compete based on cost or MPG they would have gone to the wall years ago like so many other British brands.
 
The WLTP range of 415-470km (depending on model, wheels, tires, etc) should be achievable if you drive the car approximately the same way and under the same condition that the WLTP cycle defines.

The problem is that we rarely do this.

The WLTP cycle is:
- Nice summer temperatures. 22 degree C or higher.
- No wind
- Mostly very moderate speed (just a few minutes of the 30 minute cycle are on the highway)
- No use of AC
- Driving to the car until it no longer will move (i.e. not only to when the instrument tells you there are 0% left)
- Not much elevation.

Currently I'm seeing 400 km range or more (based on consumption) when driving in very moderate speed (mix of 60-90 km/h). I can see my car surpassing the WLTP range of around (430-440 km) for my particular car in conditions defined by the WLTP (summer, no wind and no AC).

However, when I drive on the highways (which is max 110 km in Norway) my consumption increases considerably. And if I drive in the 120-130 km/t band the range will be way lower than the claimed WLTP range as expected.

If you need or prefer to drive fast you need to charge more often if you are doing a long trip.
 
Goshdarnit said:
I agree. Their big weakness is communications. The CRC account here is some help, but I think their hands are tied with what they are allowed to tell us. If they could fix their communications I think they'd find a loyal customer base willing to help them with testing and feedback.
I think JLR does not communicate with us the customers because they are not in
control of the software development . When i met them in October 2018 during the
Paris motor show they told me the 100 KW update will be released in November !
Very different from Tesla who announced and delivered an OTA software update
to modify the Tesla M3 braking distance over a week end !
 
Goshdarnit said:
Another way of putting that though is "very different from Tesla who sold a car with potentially dangerous brakes and didn't notice until a consumer group pointed it out"!
Yes it was because of a Consumer Report article . But my point is that Tesla solved
the issue over the week end by OTA ; they announced it and they did it 'which means
that they were in control ( although they made a mistake initially)
 
Billy Bunter said:
Goshdarnit said:
I agree. Their big weakness is communications. The CRC account here is some help, but I think their hands are tied with what they are allowed to tell us. If they could fix their communications I think they'd find a loyal customer base willing to help them with testing and feedback.
do we really think the CRC presence here is helpful ?
I'm not sure I can remember a single, useful response to any of the serious issues raised, and personally find it infuriating and condescending when I see their packaged answer "......if you send me a PM with your VIN I will ensure it gets raised with the appropriate team....".

All that does is take any further discussion out of the public domain and puts it back behind closed doors, so I don't see that 'presence' as at all useful to this forum.

Before I joined this forum I had never experienced Jaguar CRC, and had a very open mind about the car and about Jaguar as a company.
- I've learned a lot about the car from forum members, but nothing from Jaguar.
- My opinion about Jaguar as a company and about CRC as a customer focussed support has changed from open-mind/neutral to one where I regard CRC as useless (at best), and the company as hopelessly out of touch with its customers and potential customers.
So I think their presence here is at best pointless, at worst it actually damages the brand reputation.
Tesla had a guy who would come on the internet forum and try and help owners. He sure could take a lot of abuse. He was actually upper management and very helpful. So he was fired.

One of his last acts was to talk The Boss into removing the hidden code that restricted the cars to 25 hard launches. It apparently was like those stories you hear about where the Sergeant dives on the grenade in the bunker to save his men. Problem? It was his CO who threw the grenade in the first place.
 
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