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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just to break this out from the videos thread to a more sensible separate one for any more range discussion/debate:

johnd said:
Yes, certainly, what we're talking about is the range of 0-100% available battery capacity, whether that's 84kW, 90kW or whatever. The bit in your previous post that I'm not understanding is:

Tophe74 said:
...100% to 0% 10% then charging back to 100%...
I'm guessing there's a hyphen missing? Maybe you mean 0% to 10% (0%-10%), or maybe typically not wishing to drop below say 5% available capacity, except in event of emergency or miscalculation? In which case, yes I agree completely. So, to rewind my point:

Whatever range 0-100% of available battery capacity equates to, then you might typically only have eg 94-95% of that maximum range as routinely usable range, because (i) a limited charging period might have reached say only 98% rather than 100% AND you might prefer not to drop below 4-5% indicated range when you reach home or your recharging destination.

So, based on the figures currently available, routine range looks like 190-195 miles or thereabouts or say 300-320km in round numbers.
Tophe74 said:
No i mean i use battery from 100% to 0 - 10% almost every days.
There's another (slightly wooden but apparently official) JLR video snippet at:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLzxswS1I2A

which seems to say three things:

1. Expected range is 240 miles

2. The car can take as long to charge from 80 to 100% as from 0 to 80%.

3. It can charge on 7kW to 80% in 10 hours and to 100% in 13 hours. (Actually it's a little tricky to tell whether it's a UK or US video, it's flagged as uploaded by JLR USA but perhaps the information is UK sourced?? But I'm guessing it's referring to a 7kW AC charger?)

Fairly obviously, [2] and [3] seem to be at odds with one another. Anyone care to suggest which one is more correct?
 

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Re-posting now in the "Range" topic - top level range & battery size comparison.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/mercedes-benz-eqc-v-audi-e-tron-v-jaguar-i-pace-114133/

An article where Audi Etron, Mercedes EQC and I-pace are compared with Jaguar winning although many important categories like charging options, size, standard options.

What is interesting is the ratio of battery size and range - the smallest battery has highest range WLTP???. I added Kona and Tesla for reference.
Mercedes 500km range with a 70kW battery = 7.14km/kW
I-pace 470km range with a 90kW battery = 5.22km/kW
Etron 400km range with a 95kW battery = 4.21km/kW
Kona 482km range with a 64kW battery = 7.53km/kW
MS 75D 441km range (90% of NEDC) with a 75kW battery = 5.88km/kW
MX 75D 375km range (90% of NEDC) with a 75kW battery = 5.00km/kW

Above ratio between battery size and KM range together with charging speed AC / DC is the major factor on travel time on long trips.
 

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I don t understand why ppl make so much analyses with EV range.
Its like ice cars, some use 5l for 100km and some 10. Depends of weight, aerodynamic, power and further more on driving style. Nothing new here.
 
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johnd said:
Fairly obviously, [2] and [3] seem to be at odds with one another. Anyone care to suggest which one is more correct?
No, 2's statement of it takes as long to go from 0-80% as 80-100% is based if you are using a quick 100kw charger and not a 7kw home.

Basically you can rapid charge to 80% using 100kw, but then the power throttles down to 5-25kw (guessing here based on other EV's). Therefore the statements of 2 and 3 can both exists as they are referring to different charging methods.

------

As for the range ... it will be between 150 and 300 miles ( 240 to 480km) and until someone on YouTube does a full long range test both around town and on the highway, on a full production models, no one here will agree as there are video's stating anything from 20-30kw/100km.

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As for a typical example using the lower of the expected normal ranges of 220miles, what would be your real life conditions longest range in a day?

Assuming you are 100% full at 220 miles at the start and drive at 70mph once on a motorway, slowing down for traffic/roadworks your average speed will be roughly 65mph. You'll probably go to around 20-30miles range left (10% (ish) battery) before a rapid charge. So let's say 190 miles in 3 hours. Then rapid charge to 80% (175 miles range), in 1 hour and 15mins (using a 50kw and not a 100kw). Then drive 150 miles to 10% (20-30miles range left), and charge again, etc...

190 miles - 3 hours - Total 3 hours / 190 miles
1hr 15 mins Charge - Totaly 4h 15m
150 miles - 2h 20min - Total 6h 35m / 340 miles
1hr 15 mins Charge - Totaly 7h 50m
150 miles - 2h 20min - Total 10h 10m / 490 miles (London to Fort William)
1hr 15 mins Charge - Totaly 11h 25m
150 miles - 2h 20min - Total 13h 45m / 640 miles (M25 J23 - South Mimms Services to John o' Groats)

Now I'm not sure about anyone else, but I once drove from London (Woodford to be exact) to John o' Groats, and with rest stops, etc... it took 13 hours, was about 670 miles, and I did it in a 2003 Mini Copper S with a range of about 280-300 miles per tank (was supercharged and not that economical - around 25 mpg).

That drive killed me ... so anyone who wants to drive more than 650 miles in a day, I say good luck ... but the point is the Jag will do it in the same time it once took me in a petrol car - albeit not the best mpg car! But even a 40+mpg diesel I did a similar range journey in 12 hours! Side Note: The Mini was tons of fun along the Scottish roads though and worth the miles of bland motorway!

Now my example is not based in reality because I didn't look up chargers on routes, but if you make more stops and only charge 40-50% each time the times should still be almost the same.

The ONLY people that can honestly be concerned about range are those who's daily commutes are around 200miles - like sales rep's etc.. - and then I can understand it ... but other than that I doubt there are only a few people here who go regularly on trips with a family of more than 340miles ... as 6+ hours with kids is enough in one day!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Tophe74 said:
I don t understand why ppl make so much analyses with EV range.
Its like ice cars, some use 5l for 100km and some 10. Depends of weight, aerodynamic, power and further more on driving style. Nothing new here.
Well, I can tell you why I'm rather fixated on range, but others may well have a different point of view:

There's a journey that I personally need to do reasonably regularly for which I need a reliable range of 220-230 miles all-year round and with no convenient prospect of charging en route. I want to be able to drive reasonably how I please, which is neither going crazy nor *****-footing around (and sometimes I'll be in a hurry, other times I can afford to take it more leisurely). If I can't do this journey reliably then a lot of the pleasure of owning the I-Pace will be lost and I might as well choose a different car (almost inevitably a petrol model).

Right now, it looks like it's very marginal as to whether I can achieve this, eg the I-Pace app is telling me 200 miles range.
 
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johnd said:
Right now, it looks like it's very marginal as to whether I can achieve this, eg the I-Pace app is telling me 200 miles range.
Looks like either a Tesla 75D or Hyundai Kona 64kw for you then! (in fact you could get 2 Kona's for the same costs!)

Sorry the Jag isn't the car for you, maybe when the get around to doing an XF version!
 

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Tophe74 said:
I don t understand why ppl make so much analyses with EV range.
Its like ice cars, some use 5l for 100km and some 10. Depends of weight, aerodynamic, power and further more on driving style. Nothing new here.
Yes, for me the whole thing with the i-pace is about range. For the same amount of money or less I can buy a very nice ICE car.
But as I want to make the transition to EV it is indeed all about range (combined with the look / comfort of a Jaguar).
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Gdank said:
Looks like either a Tesla 75D or Hyundai Kona 64kw for you then! (in fact you could get 2 Kona's for the same costs!)

Sorry the Jag isn't the car for you, maybe when the get around to doing an XF version!
Well, Tesla is too big - I really don't care for 5m-long cars and AIUI there's not much performance in the Kona. 4WD Model Y might be more in the frame, but that seems to be just a twinkle in Mr Musk's rather bloodshot eyes right now.

For me the main alternatives look to be Cupra Ateca, Tiguan R (not R-line!) or Audi SQ3 (assuming it happens) or conceivably a Macan petrol (if the facelift petrols can deliver the right mix of performance and economy, which is unlikely). But the whole of the WLTP shenanigans seem to have delayed announcements on all of the petrol options right now, so it may well be another 2-4 months before the mist clears on these various other options for me.

So I'm leaving the I-Pace in the frame until the range issue gets cleared up unambiguously.
 
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johnd said:
Well, Tesla is too big - I really don't care for 5m-long cars ...
So I'm leaving the I-Pace in the frame until the range issue gets cleared up unambiguously.
I-Pace is 4.7m :eek: (well 4.68 to be exact!) and a Model is 4.98m

My F-Pace was 4.73m and my current car is 4.83 ... to be honest not really noticed the difference. I've also drive a Jag XJ a lot and that's 5.13m :shock: but apart from tight car park ramps you'll never notice the extra length.

Still other options are a Model 3 in mid-late 2019 (EU) and UK in "maybe" 2019 but probably early 2020.

Jaguar are going to update all cars when they are refreshed with an EV options, so an XE will be lighter, have better aerodynamics, and should be a bit cheaper than an I-Pace. Although the I think the XJ is next ... so might be a few years before the XE.

As for your list :-
Cupra Ateca / Tigaun - Not driven the Seat but spent a decent amount of time in a Tiguan, nice cars but both more the size of a Q5 so a Q3 is a lot smaller. I test drove a SQ5 in 2016 ... personally I thought it was great in a straight line, but crap around bends so brought the F-Pace instead.
I also tested a Macan - great car but you're paying up to £20k over an F-Pace for similar performance. There's always the F-Pace SVR with that 5.0L v8 out now! :p
 

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well when u have a 5m long garage then 30cm is a big deal :)
Everybody has differents needs or specs to folow.
I think model S and i pace are different enough to respond to differents needs.
 

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Tophe74 said:
well when u have a 5m long garage then 30cm is a big deal :)
Everybody has differents needs or specs to folow.
I think model S and i pace are different enough to respond to differents needs.
I also ruled out a Model X as it was too big to fit in my 5m garage. Surprisingly my current car, a Range Rover Sport, fits in no problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
@Gdank: Thanks for your suggestions - always interesting to talk new car options with others. But, probably like most people, I've got my own idiosyncratic priorities for my next drive, which is why my shortlist is as it is. (I hesitate to add to the OT-ness of this new thread, but just to answer briefly...)

I'm someone who really prefers smaller cars - there's pleasure in their compactness & efficiency, they're often more practical for small parking spaces, narrow roads, smaller turning circle etc and a well-designed smaller car is always going to be more chuckable and hence more enjoyable to drive energetically in my book than a larger one. Should say that I don't have a large family or dogs or run an antiques business and so something smaller suits me fine.

How do you define smaller? Well there's obviously multiple parameters like length, height, width, weight etc, but in general within a class (eg SUV) size tends to scale roughly with length so it makes sense to use length as the most useful single metric.

My car before last was a CR170 (diesel) Yeti and this has come closer than anything else I've owned to my ideal car - large enough to take four in reasonable comfort, go-anywhere (within reason) 4WD practicality, decent performance & handling and the only obvious downside is the limited bootspace, though I never found this a problem - you learn to pack vertically or if not travelling four-up then fold a seat or in extremis literally take out one or both rear seats. And this is all in 4.2m car. Anything smaller starts to become too compromised and actually the main offerings in this class like Tiguan, Q3 etc have moved up to around 4.4m in length.

Previous car was a Q3 (4.4m again IIRC), which was well-made and fine but with very staid styling and anodyne character. My present Macan (4.7m) is what's made me realise that this is really bigger than I'd ideally prefer and no I haven't really got used to it over time - if anything it's reinforced my view that small is beautiful. And yes I know of course that the I-Pace is much the same size. But the attractions of the I-Pace like excellent performance and buying into an EV felt like being worth the compromise on size. But this would be the pretty much the maximum in size that I'd entertain. As it happens I do also have a 4.7m long parking space at the holiday house, so that's one minor practical limitation.

So I'm in the market for a smaller, premium, non-diesel 4WD SUV with excellent performance, that does a minimum of a genuine 25mpg (not for cost reasons, but to take some account of CO2 concerns). As per my email above, this doesn't leave too many options beyond I-Pace. JLR don't make anything else that appeals - no offence to anyone but F-Pace is just too big and gross, E-Pace just looks clumsy. Tiguan and the pending new Q3 (which does look like a major step forwards in styling both in and out) are both 4.5m cars and Ateca is slightly shorter IIRC. Just not much else out there in the marketplace that appeals. I'm rather allergic to BMW and Merc's interior styling really grates. Hence my shortlist!
 

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You could consider buying a Volvo XC40 :). It should come as a BEV within one year.
 

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:D :) so funny - this topic was started because we were discussing range in "press review" topic and now in the "range" topic all that is discussed is which cars to buy and why with key element being length of the car :? : :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
DrPhil said:
You could consider buying a Volvo XC40 :). It should come as a BEV within one year.
Yes, thanks, I was about to edit my post to add XC40 as a possible and which I'd forgotten about. But XC40 seems designed for comfort rather than performance. It's an interesting option, but not sure I could live with the quirky dash design. I know, I know, that's probably not a good rational reason for passing it up but there's inevitably some emotional response to a design.
 

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:D :) so funny - this topic was started because we were discussing range in "press review" topic and now in the "range" topic all that is discussed is which cars to buy and why with key element being length of the car :? : :eek:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You are so right Jelle !! It's an annoying habit by people to hijack topics.

PS: I am perfectly ok with the range of the i-Pace, even if it turns out to be around 300-350km with a normal/sporty driving style in real life. For my daily work commute (75km a day) it is more than enough and I will charge/top-up overnight at home. Still deliberating the charger to install at home, but I will discuss that in the "home charging" topic ;) . If necessary, I have a brand new Fastned 175kW station on my daily route, so I don't foresee any issues.
 

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johnd said:
Tophe74 said:
I don t understand why ppl make so much analyses with EV range.
Its like ice cars, some use 5l for 100km and some 10. Depends of weight, aerodynamic, power and further more on driving style. Nothing new here.
Well, I can tell you why I'm rather fixated on range, but others may well have a different point of view:

There's a journey that I personally need to do reasonably regularly for which I need a reliable range of 220-230 miles all-year round and with no convenient prospect of charging en route. I want to be able to drive reasonably how I please, which is neither going crazy nor *****-footing around (and sometimes I'll be in a hurry, other times I can afford to take it more leisurely). If I can't do this journey reliably then a lot of the pleasure of owning the I-Pace will be lost and I might as well choose a different car (almost inevitably a petrol model).

Right now, it looks like it's very marginal as to whether I can achieve this, eg the I-Pace app is telling me 200 miles range.
John

If I was in your shoes, I would be contacting a local JLR dealer, or any JLR dealer for that matter that would work with you, telling them your predicament and asking if I could borrow an I Pace for a day, I would then drive that journey and see for myself how it performed, if it does happen to fall short, then press the Recovery button and get someone out to give you a charge, at least that way you will be able to prove to yourself if it is a suitable car for you, not having to rely on third party comments and possibly wasting your money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
ChrisMc said:
If I was in your shoes, I would be contacting a local JLR dealer, or any JLR dealer for that matter that would work with you, telling them your predicament and asking if I could borrow an I Pace for a day, I would then drive that journey and see for myself how it performed, if it does happen to fall short, then press the Recovery button and get someone out to give you a charge,
That is indeed the plan. Problem right now is that I'm not even sure that test drives have started at my local dealer (maybe they have, just - I need to find out this week) but what I've been told is that initially test drives will all be accompanied 20-30 minutes round the block affairs and their single demo car will be fully committed to this, at least until the backlog of promised test-drives is cleared.

So, I may well have to wait a month or two before a longer loan car becomes possible.
 

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johnd said:
ChrisMc said:
If I was in your shoes, I would be contacting a local JLR dealer, or any JLR dealer for that matter that would work with you, telling them your predicament and asking if I could borrow an I Pace for a day, I would then drive that journey and see for myself how it performed, if it does happen to fall short, then press the Recovery button and get someone out to give you a charge,
That is indeed the plan. Problem right now is that I'm not even sure that test drives have started at my local dealer (maybe they have, just - I need to find out this week) but what I've been told is that initially test drives will all be accompanied 20-30 minutes round the block affairs and their single demo car will be fully committed to this, at least until the backlog of promised test-drives is cleared.

So, I may well have to wait a month or two before a longer loan car becomes possible.
Yes, I agree short test drives might only be available just now at many dealers, but I would be asking anyway. I have one booked for early October (originally mid September but I had to change dates) and was told as long as I gave them about 3 weeks notice then I should be able to take as long as I wanted.
 
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