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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi
Has anyone here with a MY21 taken delivery of a car with lane centring (the green steering wheel sign on the dashboard, not lane keep assist which has only the two almost parallel green lines)?
My dealer has told me that Jaguar has removed it for "changes in safety regulations" after asking directly to JLR HQ. It seems that Mercedes has also removed it from some of their cars too for MY21, but not all. I am still upset this wasn't disclosed to me when I bought the car, after having test driven a MY20 which had a good enough system for me to use.

I understand that the driving assist systems for the I-Pace are from Bosch, and I suspect most German manufacturers use the same supplier and possibly the same system. However Volkswagen, Porsche, but also most other manufacturers still offer the lane centring systems for MY21. Mercedes even talks about their system for the new S-class.

So what is the logic behind this removal from Jaguar and possibly other manufacturers? Are they waiting for an update on the firmware from Bosch? Are their legal department over-zealous? Would be great to understand this better if anyone here has some insight on this topic.

Many thanks!
 

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Noone has a MY21 with real steering assist. If you are bothered by this you should seek compensation from your dealer in the first instance.

I am looking at new car options for the Mrs who currently has steering assist in her VW group car. A number of their new cars make no reference to steering assist in the build configurators which suggests to me it may be being removed from the newest VW group cars too. Which gives some weight to the regulatory concerns rationale.

Regardless of the reason if you bought a car based on what you were told by the dealer or JLR literature only to find features missing you do have legal recourse.

The norm seems to have been £1k as compensation for the absence of steering and park assist.
 

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It's the liability issue that is the problem, these driving aids are not perfect and looking at the IGUIDE there are a lot of situations that are unsafe, I've experienced a couple driving. There is no way of ensuring that drivers are trained to understand the risk if the aid malfunctions, if the lane keeping fails and injury is caused the driver will blame the car, then the manufacturer has to prove the driver was trained to use the car - online instructions are not enough.

So lane keeping where the car steers itself has been downgraded to lane warning, the car warns you when you cross the white line but you are fully in control and any liability is yours. Some cars go one step further and stop you changing lane when a car is in your blind spot, linking blind spot warning with steering.
 

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Delta5 said:
It's the liability issue that is the problem, these driving aids are not perfect and looking at the IGUIDE there are a lot of situations that are unsafe, I've experienced a couple driving. There is no way of ensuring that drivers are trained to understand the risk if the aid malfunctions, if the lane keeping fails and injury is caused the driver will blame the car, then the manufacturer has to prove the driver was trained to use the car - online instructions are not enough.

So lane keeping where the car steers itself has been downgraded to lane warning, the car warns you when you cross the white line but you are fully in control and any liability is yours. Some cars go one step further and stop you changing lane when a car is in your blind spot, linking blind spot warning with steering.
It depends how interventionist the steering assist is.

I think it works perfectly on the other car unless the driver is a moron and VW make clear the driver is responsible at all times.

Steering assist is meant to make a trip less tiring by holding the centre of the road without undue effort. On VW group cars (and Tesla's), the car detects if the driver is actually holding the wheel and steering. If that isn't detected it sounds an alarm and flashes a message, if that is ignored it shakes the wheel and will ultimately drop itself from assist mode.

It would be a shame if a very useful feature can no longer be fitted because a small number of buyers are too idiotic to be allowed out alone let alone be allowed to drive.
 

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EB It acknowledges that there are idiots or drivers that are distracted just at that moment and the car taking off on its own unexpectedly.
My very close incident was ACC related
Following a truck on a long 40mph stretch
Approaching a crossroads junction ACC slowed down with him to about 10mph
He turned Left, ACC accelerated briskly -
BUT
There was an unseen cyclist stationary waiting to turn right
I was paying attention and braked but it was a very close call and quite alarming.

AAC, IMO is safe enough on motorways etc but should cancel automatically at low speed, convenience should never override
safety
My MY 20 has lane following, having tried it, I don't like the feel of the car correcting, so don't use it. There is quite a lot of adverse comment online about steering assist across several brands
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
electric beagle said:
Noone has a MY21 with real steering assist. If you are bothered by this you should seek compensation from your dealer in the first instance.

I am looking at new car options for the Mrs who currently has steering assist in her VW group car. A number of their new cars make no reference to steering assist in the build configurators which suggests to me it may be being removed from the newest VW group cars too. Which gives some weight to the regulatory concerns rationale.

Regardless of the reason if you bought a car based on what you were told by the dealer or JLR literature only to find features missing you do have legal recourse.

The norm seems to have been £1k as compensation for the absence of steering and park assist.
I already have a number of issues open with the dealer about the car; I have caught on camera in just a small road trip issues with reverse cameras not working, battery charge and range not updating during charge, preconditioning programming not working, infotainment screen flashing on and off, adaptive cruise control and emergency brake assist system malfunction, etc. Almost of which are caught on camera as I know it would otherwise be hard for them to believe.

Steering Assist is important to me, but none of the alternative cars I want seem to offer it anymore, and honestly I rather the dealer focus on fixing the other issues mentioned above. I looked at the brochure and it mentions "Drivers pack" but no direct mention of the Steering Assist; I think the dealer itself didn't know this was removed until I asked. If you look on the online i-Pace user guide, the MY20 and before do mention Steering Assist, but not for MY21 so this is no mistake.

The real issue though is that Tesla and others (Japanese and Korean brands), Mercedes S-Class continue to offer this feature for MY21. I am pretty confident VW offers it for the ID.3 MY21 as well (don't even think there is an ID.3 MY20), was briefly considering a MY21 Taycan and it was available there too. Heck Volvo continues to offer it on their cars, and they're known to be quite conservative when it comes to safety.

My conclusion is that there is no outright legal ban for these lane centring systems, and I think that this is all down to "Health and Safety" paralysis at JLR and some other places. This is what happens when the legal department runs the business.
 

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Delta5 said:
EB It acknowledges that there are idiots or drivers that are distracted just at that moment and the car taking off on its own unexpectedly.
My very close incident was ACC related
Following a truck on a long 40mph stretch
Approaching a crossroads junction ACC slowed down with him to about 10mph
He turned Left, ACC accelerated briskly -
BUT
There was an unseen cyclist stationary waiting to turn right
I was paying attention and braked but it was a very close call and quite alarming.

AAC, IMO is safe enough on motorways etc but should cancel automatically at low speed, convenience should never override
safety
My MY 20 has lane following, having tried it, I don't like the feel of the car correcting, so don't use it. There is quite a lot of adverse comment online about steering assist across several brands
I am sorry but if drivers are not capable of using it responsibly then they should turn it off, or alternatively it should be turned off by default and all drivers seeking to use it only allowed to enable it (perhaps via a code) after completing a safe operations training session online.

I do not see why a useful feature for a responsible user like myself should be constrained because a small number of people lack the ability to turn something off that they do not understand or are capable of using.

If you massively speed up using ACC in traffic then your speed on the ACC was set at too high a level anyway. Queue assist in traffic is a really useful feature if used properly but the car will follow the instructions it is given just as much as if your foot is on the accelerator or hand on the wheel (which it should be at all times anyway).

We are adults, we are responsible, if something does not work for us then we should turn it off and leave it to those who know how to use it responsibly.
 

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tutis said:
electric beagle said:
Noone has a MY21 with real steering assist. If you are bothered by this you should seek compensation from your dealer in the first instance.

I am looking at new car options for the Mrs who currently has steering assist in her VW group car. A number of their new cars make no reference to steering assist in the build configurators which suggests to me it may be being removed from the newest VW group cars too. Which gives some weight to the regulatory concerns rationale.

Regardless of the reason if you bought a car based on what you were told by the dealer or JLR literature only to find features missing you do have legal recourse.

The norm seems to have been £1k as compensation for the absence of steering and park assist.
I already have a number of issues open with the dealer about the car; I have caught on camera in just a small road trip issues with reverse cameras not working, battery charge and range not updating during charge, preconditioning programming not working, infotainment screen flashing on and off, adaptive cruise control and emergency brake assist system malfunction, etc. Almost of which are caught on camera as I know it would otherwise be hard for them to believe.

Steering Assist is important to me, but none of the alternative cars I want seem to offer it anymore, and honestly I rather the dealer focus on fixing the other issues mentioned above. I looked at the brochure and it mentions "Drivers pack" but no direct mention of the Steering Assist; I think the dealer itself didn't know this was removed until I asked. If you look on the online i-Pace user guide, the MY20 and before do mention Steering Assist, but not for MY21 so this is no mistake.

The real issue though is that Tesla and others (Japanese and Korean brands), Mercedes S-Class continue to offer this feature for MY21. I am pretty confident VW offers it for the ID.3 MY21 as well (don't even think there is an ID.3 MY20), was briefly considering a MY21 Taycan and it was available there too. Heck Volvo continues to offer it on their cars, and they're known to be quite conservative when it comes to safety.

My conclusion is that there is no outright legal ban for these lane centring systems, and I think that this is all down to "Health and Safety" paralysis at JLR and some other places. This is what happens when the legal department runs the business.
If its a MY21 then the software update to 2.03 will solve the state of charge showing in the app and 2.06 fixes a number of other issues including recognition of the driver using the key and phone that are paired. I have to say that the range does not update very well until your first drive after charge but SOC now shows reliably, which is good enough for me as the range is mostly miles out anyway.

Its obviously up to the manufacturer what to offer or not, I suspect the lack of steer assist may really hurt their US sales so they must have considered this carefully unless it was a short term correction to an issue with a component.

Incidentally the MY21 iGuide does talk about a number of features which are just not there on the MY21 like a SIM slot and Park Assist
 

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If I was a JLR lawyer or their insurance company that covers product liability I would be very worried about a $Billion dollar claim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Delta5 said:
If I was a JLR lawyer or their insurance company that covers product liability I would be very worried about a $Billion dollar claim.
I am happy to sign a waver it that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. Also, for such systems provide by a third party, there is usually "reliance" on the third party; meaning that any litigation would be deflected to Bosch, and JLR would claim they were acting in good faith.

Finally, if this is such a safety priority for JLR, then why wouldn't they de-activate it for MY20 and before? Is it then that for MY20 and before money is the priority (i.e. not reimbursing clients who paid for this feature and therefore not removing this feature), but for MY21 and later security is the priority? Fine for JLR to have the high moral ground, but they need to be consistent.
 

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Delta5 said:
If I was a JLR lawyer or their insurance company that covers product liability I would be very worried about a $Billion dollar claim.
Lawyers are always worried that is their job.

Whenever you sell anything you will carry a degree of legal risk. A lawyer simply advises on potential liability (which can be fully mitigated I would suggest by a range of low cost options) however a good business owner or management leader balances the legal risks against other imperatives rather than seeks to eliminate all possible risk.

I would suspect the real risk of morons misusing a feature and then successfully suing JLR would be quite low.

In the US market (not globally renowned for its sophisticated consumer base) they have been selling non Adaptive cruise control for 40 years, if ever there was an accident and legal liability waiting to happen that was it but no-one stopped offering old fashioned cruise control (sometimes of fairly dubious reliability).
 

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tutis said:
Delta5 said:
If I was a JLR lawyer or their insurance company that covers product liability I would be very worried about a $Billion dollar claim.
I am happy to sign a waver it that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. Also, for such systems provide by a third party, there is usually "reliance" on the third party; meaning that any litigation would be deflected to Bosch, and JLR would claim they were acting in good faith.

Finally, if this is such a safety priority for JLR, then why wouldn't they de-activate it for MY20 and before? Is it then that for MY20 and before money is the priority (i.e. not reimbursing clients who paid for this feature and therefore not removing this feature), but for MY21 and later security is the priority? Fine for JLR to have the high moral ground, but they need to be consistent.
I suspect the issue is more complex and may centre around a new design or component not quite meeting its performance spec. Especially given the number of other manufacturers following a similar path. It may well be that the old component performs adequately but the new one does not (currently).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
electric beagle said:
tutis said:
Delta5 said:
If I was a JLR lawyer or their insurance company that covers product liability I would be very worried about a $Billion dollar claim.
I am happy to sign a waver it that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. Also, for such systems provide by a third party, there is usually "reliance" on the third party; meaning that any litigation would be deflected to Bosch, and JLR would claim they were acting in good faith.

Finally, if this is such a safety priority for JLR, then why wouldn't they de-activate it for MY20 and before? Is it then that for MY20 and before money is the priority (i.e. not reimbursing clients who paid for this feature and therefore not removing this feature), but for MY21 and later security is the priority? Fine for JLR to have the high moral ground, but they need to be consistent.
I suspect the issue is more complex and may centre around a new design or component not quite meeting its performance spec. Especially given the number of other manufacturers following a similar path. It may well be that the old component performs adequately but the new one does not (currently).
You're probably right in that they've found an issue, and other manufacturers may have as well. Still not sure how/why Volvo and others who also use Bosch would just ignore it then.

Regardless Jaguar should have been more forthcoming with its dealers and flagging that this feature has been removed so that clients wouldn't be left to discover this after taking delivery. JLR would also score some points if they could learn to communicate, explaining why this feature is removed or deactivated and whether they are working on a possible fix (or if Bosch is working on a fix). Unfortunately it seems JLR has some misguided pride in being as transparent with their customers about issues and potential fixes as companies were more than 20 years ago. I really hope the new CEO brings a wind of culture change at Jaguar.
 

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Jaguar certainly got the description given for their MY21 wrong but because other brands are dropping the feature it's probably not just the technology fitted to the car that's the problem - they could revert to the old system.

More likely the whole concept of cameras following white lines and lasers being reliable in bad conditions that is in question, maybe good enough as a "warning" feature not as an "active" feature.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Delta5 said:
Jaguar certainly got the description given for their MY21 wrong but because other brands are dropping the feature it's probably not just the technology fitted to the car that's the problem - they could revert to the old system.

More likely the whole concept of cameras following white lines and lasers being reliable in bad conditions that is in question, maybe good enough as a "warning" feature not as an "active" feature.
That's a very plausible explanation, but assuming this is the reason and JLR and others knowing that this is a safety risk then why wouldn't they de-activate it from prior models ? It doesn't make sense that they have two different attitudes towards this risk
 

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I'm assuming that it was removed for MY21 for liability reasons and/or component availability. The system is dangerous on secondary roads but I've found it to be nearly flawless on divided highways. I hope this feature returns in MY22 as Ford, Toyota, Hyundai and VW offer it in even their lowest-price models and it puts JLR at a competitive disadvantage.

Lane centering was a must-have when I was shopping for an EV this spring in the USA. The only other options at the time were the e-tron (too slow ;) ), the Taycan (too $$$) or the Tesla (too ubiquitous).
 

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Vandy2020 said:
I'm assuming that it was removed for MY21 for liability reasons and/or component availability. The system is dangerous on secondary roads but I've found it to be nearly flawless on divided highways. I hope this feature returns in MY22 as Ford, Toyota, Hyundai and VW offer it in even their lowest-price models and it puts JLR at a competitive disadvantage.

Lane centering was a must-have when I was shopping for an EV this spring in the USA. The only other options at the time were the e-tron (too slow ;) ), the Taycan (too $$$) or the Tesla (too ubiquitous).
The tracking of the road for LKA is totally abysmal which may be part of the issue. It is very rare I ever hit the magic 2 green lines even on motorways. The detection of the lane borders is just crap compared to the highly reliable VW implementation on my wifes car which only very rarely reports amber on steer and lane assist.
 
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