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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
News article in NL (is in Dutch) - about discussions to implement penalty for people leaving their EV on a charger despite being 100% charged.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2261179-laadpaalklevers-moeten-een-boetetarief-gaan-betalen.html

Below graph show # of EV in NL, from approx 87,000 (<10,000 BEV) in 2015 to 134,062 (35,000 BEV) in 2018 and other graph shows # of charges in NL from approx 18,000 in 2015 to nearly 38,000 in 2018 which sounds great but only 2.5% is fast charger (AC >43kW or DC >50kW). Whereby the fast majority of public AC chargers are 11kW which for the I-pace just means 3.7kW.

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I think it's a great idea. Not sure if it will be effective. If I understand correctly you can set the charge speed of your car. So you could still camp on the charge spot. This tactic is apparently already used by some, sad!
 

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And the problem is that I plug mine in when I arrive at my work in a parking garage, and only come back after a working day. Switching during daytime is nog an option. But agreed, we need to find a solution for this since there are too many cars for too little chargers... Haven't got the right solution at this moment ...
 

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groennom said:
And the problem is that I plug mine in when I arrive at my work in a parking garage, and only come back after a working day. Switching during daytime is nog an option. But agreed, we need to find a solution for this since there are too many cars for too little chargers... Haven't got the right solution at this moment ...
Hmmm, big opportunity for an entrepreneur to start a "Charge 'r us" company with valet service.
 

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fox_nl said:
groennom said:
And the problem is that I plug mine in when I arrive at my work in a parking garage, and only come back after a working day. Switching during daytime is nog an option. But agreed, we need to find a solution for this since there are too many cars for too little chargers... Haven't got the right solution at this moment ...
Hmmm, big opportunity for an entrepreneur to start a "Charge 'r us" company with valet service.
I see this differently... The hardware (charge point) is not so expensive for AC charge points. It is more or less a relay with some electronics to control it. What makes it expensive is the upgrade in the grid if you put many chargers close to each other. So the solution here is to place much more charge points next to each other and then apply load balancing over those charge points. You can either limit all charge points when more vehicles are connected and given them all a slower speed, or charge them on first come, first serve basis and start charging the next couple of car when the first couple is fully charged. Especially with PHEV, this works quite well as they only require less than a two hour charge on average but block the charger for the full working day. We are already testing those solutions at our own office. Also to make better use of solar power installed. So we try to postpone the PHEV cars charging and start that around lunch when sun is at maximum power. They are still fully charged at the end of the office day, but much less impact on the grid compared to all cars charging at the same time and not making use of solar. We have a few "special" spots that have no load balancing, just for the people that need to leave soon or require a full charge with a "huge" battery like the i-pace or Tesla's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Snoerd said:
fox_nl said:
groennom said:
And the problem is that I plug mine in when I arrive at my work in a parking garage, and only come back after a working day. Switching during daytime is nog an option. But agreed, we need to find a solution for this since there are too many cars for too little chargers... Haven't got the right solution at this moment ...
Hmmm, big opportunity for an entrepreneur to start a "Charge 'r us" company with valet service.
I see this differently... The hardware (charge point) is not so expensive for AC charge points. It is more or less a relay with some electronics to control it. What makes it expensive is the upgrade in the grid if you put many chargers close to each other. So the solution here is to place much more charge points next to each other and then apply load balancing over those charge points. You can either limit all charge points when more vehicles are connected and given them all a slower speed, or charge them on first come, first serve basis and start charging the next couple of car when the first couple is fully charged. Especially with PHEV, this works quite well as they only require less than a two hour charge on average but block the charger for the full working day. We are already testing those solutions at our own office. Also to make better use of solar power installed. So we try to postpone the PHEV cars charging and start that around lunch when sun is at maximum power. They are still fully charged at the end of the office day, but much less impact on the grid compared to all cars charging at the same time and not making use of solar. We have a few "special" spots that have no load balancing, just for the people that need to leave soon or require a full charge with a "huge" battery like the i-pace or Tesla's.
When the majority is PHEV it works but it is not what we need for BEV cars - there needs to be much more DC chargers available everywhere.
AC chargers are only practical at work, home and hotels but anywhere else certainly with I-pace it is useless - charge an hour and you get 10km range.

Regarding network cost - yes you certainly have a point but that is than also up to government to change as well as invest in and/or make it easier/cheaper for commercial parties to install a DC charger network like Fastned or Ionity etc.
 

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groennom said:
And the problem is that I plug mine in when I arrive at my work in a parking garage, and only come back after a working day. Switching during daytime is nog an option. But agreed, we need to find a solution for this since there are too many cars for too little chargers... Haven't got the right solution at this moment ...
Why is that not an option? Is is very healthy to come out of your office once in a while ;)
 

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pivoking said:
groennom said:
And the problem is that I plug mine in when I arrive at my work in a parking garage, and only come back after a working day. Switching during daytime is nog an option. But agreed, we need to find a solution for this since there are too many cars for too little chargers... Haven't got the right solution at this moment ...
Why is that not an option? Is is very healthy to come out of your office once in a while ;)
Thats true, might consider it..
 

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Here is a charger I came across just outside Settle in North Yorkshire. I had plenty of range so I wasn't interested in using it, but checked it out for future reference. I'd not heard of Genie Point before, but a bit of research showed they're mainly based around NW England.

The relevant bit here is the "Overstay Charges" notice which states "A penalty charge of £10.00 will be charged for any vehicle connected for over 1 hour and a further £10.00 for every subsequent hour".

A good idea? Or a bit draconian? Nice notice about moving your vehicle after charging though.

The point is at a rather nice small shopping complex with a restaurant on the A65.

Sorry the main picture is sideways, but I don't know how to fix it. The original is the right way up! Sorry too the zoomed in version isn't very sharp... it's just an iPhone shot.

View attachment 987
Font Technology Electric blue Screenshot Multimedia
 

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Yes their rapid chargers give you and hour, but their fast chargers give you about 4 hours before the overstay charge kicks in. You can pay by card or by the app and also pay by Oyster card
 

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Some other chargers start the penalty after 65 minutes which allows you to charge for a full hour and then get a few minutes to move or at least disconnect the car.
One hour is just being mean.
I wonder what the usage level of this charger is? If there is never any competition then why be so strict?

I'm really not keen on using pay by the minute chargers, those which charge a hefty connection fee (what the heck is that for exactly????) and those which hit you with and equally high overstay charge with no leeway.
Oh, and anything over £0.35p/kW won't be on my list of favourites (which makes rapid charging in London out of the question)
 

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As I pointed out in the thread "Economics of Rapid Chargers", we need to expect to pay what may seem a lot if we want the charging infrastructure to develop at the pace (!) we'd like. Unless Governments intervene and set up state-subsidised infrastructure - unlikely in UK.
I'd rather pay 50p/kW-hr at a 100kW charger where a row of 6 of them meant it was unlikely to be full when I arrived, than 30p/kW-hr at an Ecotricity charger which was likely to (a) only give me 35kW (b) be occupied (c) be broken.
Yes, we need some mechanism to prevent chargers being occupied unnecessarily, but I'm not sure how best to do that.
And I think I read somewhere that some bit of EU legislation is forcing providers to charge per kW-hr, not per minute?
 

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DougTheMac said:
As I pointed out in the thread "Economics of Rapid Chargers", we need to expect to pay what may seem a lot if we want the charging infrastructure to develop at the pace (!) we'd like. Unless Governments intervene and set up state-subsidised infrastructure - unlikely in UK.
I'd rather pay 50p/kW-hr at a 100kW charger where a row of 6 of them meant it was unlikely to be full when I arrived, than 30p/kW-hr at an Ecotricity charger which was likely to (a) only give me 35kW (b) be occupied (c) be broken.
Yes, we need some mechanism to prevent chargers being occupied unnecessarily, but I'm not sure how best to do that.
And I think I read somewhere that some bit of EU legislation is forcing providers to charge per kW-hr, not per minute?
I thought the other way round.... that it will become time-based tariffs, but I'm not 100% sure.
 

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DougTheMac said:
As I pointed out in the thread "Economics of Rapid Chargers", we need to expect to pay what may seem a lot if we want the charging infrastructure to develop at the pace (!) we'd like. Unless Governments intervene and set up state-subsidised infrastructure - unlikely in UK.
I'd rather pay 50p/kW-hr at a 100kW charger where a row of 6 of them meant it was unlikely to be full when I arrived, than 30p/kW-hr at an Ecotricity charger which was likely to (a) only give me 35kW (b) be occupied (c) be broken.
Yes, we need some mechanism to prevent chargers being occupied unnecessarily, but I'm not sure how best to do that.
And I think I read somewhere that some bit of EU legislation is forcing providers to charge per kW-hr, not per minute?
That's a really great balanced view. Ultra fast chargers are especially expensive bits of kit, so it is inevitable we will have to pay for someone to place them exactly where we need them to be exactly when we want them.

Personally, I will only ever have to use them very occasionally, but when I do, I would like the highest possible chance of being able to get straight onto one. And to have it in perfect working order. What I have to pay for the privilege is almost entirely irrelevant, as compared to the countless £100 plus diesel/petrol bills I've paid over the years.

Certainty in life is everything! Even though it comes at a cost.
 

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DougTheMac said:
As I pointed out in the thread "Economics of Rapid Chargers", we need to expect to pay what may seem a lot if we want the charging infrastructure to develop at the pace (!) we'd like. Unless Governments intervene and set up state-subsidised infrastructure - unlikely in UK.
I'd rather pay 50p/kW-hr at a 100kW charger where a row of 6 of them meant it was unlikely to be full when I arrived, than 30p/kW-hr at an Ecotricity charger which was likely to (a) only give me 35kW (b) be occupied (c) be broken.
Yes, we need some mechanism to prevent chargers being occupied unnecessarily, but I'm not sure how best to do that.
And I think I read somewhere that some bit of EU legislation is forcing providers to charge per kW-hr, not per minute?
+1
 

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mikew said:
DougTheMac said:
As I pointed out in the thread "Economics of Rapid Chargers", we need to expect to pay what may seem a lot if we want the charging infrastructure to develop at the pace (!) we'd like. Unless Governments intervene and set up state-subsidised infrastructure - unlikely in UK.
I'd rather pay 50p/kW-hr at a 100kW charger where a row of 6 of them meant it was unlikely to be full when I arrived, than 30p/kW-hr at an Ecotricity charger which was likely to (a) only give me 35kW (b) be occupied (c) be broken.
Yes, we need some mechanism to prevent chargers being occupied unnecessarily, but I'm not sure how best to do that.
And I think I read somewhere that some bit of EU legislation is forcing providers to charge per kW-hr, not per minute?
That's a really great balanced view. Ultra fast chargers are especially expensive bits of kit, so it is inevitable we will have to pay for someone to place them exactly where we need them to be exactly when we want them.

Personally, I will only ever have to use them very occasionally, but when I do, I would like the highest possible chance of being able to get straight onto one. And to have it in perfect working order. What I have to pay for the privilege is almost entirely irrelevant, as compared to the countless £100 plus diesel/petrol bills I've paid over the years.

Certainty in life is everything! Even though it comes at a cost.
I agree with this too, I've never bought a car based on how economical it is to run, but would rather have ease of use/access to CP's than worry about a few £££s here and there.
 

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ChrisMc said:
mikew said:
DougTheMac said:
As I pointed out in the thread "Economics of Rapid Chargers", we need to expect to pay what may seem a lot if we want the charging infrastructure to develop at the pace (!) we'd like. Unless Governments intervene and set up state-subsidised infrastructure - unlikely in UK.
I'd rather pay 50p/kW-hr at a 100kW charger where a row of 6 of them meant it was unlikely to be full when I arrived, than 30p/kW-hr at an Ecotricity charger which was likely to (a) only give me 35kW (b) be occupied (c) be broken.
Yes, we need some mechanism to prevent chargers being occupied unnecessarily, but I'm not sure how best to do that.
And I think I read somewhere that some bit of EU legislation is forcing providers to charge per kW-hr, not per minute?
That's a really great balanced view. Ultra fast chargers are especially expensive bits of kit, so it is inevitable we will have to pay for someone to place them exactly where we need them to be exactly when we want them.

Personally, I will only ever have to use them very occasionally, but when I do, I would like the highest possible chance of being able to get straight onto one. And to have it in perfect working order. What I have to pay for the privilege is almost entirely irrelevant, as compared to the countless £100 plus diesel/petrol bills I've paid over the years.

Certainty in life is everything! Even though it comes at a cost.
I agree with this too, I've never bought a car based on how economical it is to run, but would rather have ease of use/access to CP's than worry about a few £££s here and there.
Thank you ChrisMc, we are in full accord!
 

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mikew said:
ChrisMc said:
mikew said:
That's a really great balanced view. Ultra fast chargers are especially expensive bits of kit, so it is inevitable we will have to pay for someone to place them exactly where we need them to be exactly when we want them.

Personally, I will only ever have to use them very occasionally, but when I do, I would like the highest possible chance of being able to get straight onto one. And to have it in perfect working order. What I have to pay for the privilege is almost entirely irrelevant, as compared to the countless £100 plus diesel/petrol bills I've paid over the years.

Certainty in life is everything! Even though it comes at a cost.
I agree with this too, I've never bought a car based on how economical it is to run, but would rather have ease of use/access to CP's than worry about a few £££s here and there.
Thank you ChrisMc, we are in full accord!
Thanks DougTheMac and others - I agree too.
However I-Pace drivers are a rather select affluent group. As EVs become more affordable for the majority, we can expect price-sensitivity to increase.
 
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