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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Stacie,

Can you please advise if Jaguar has improved the security of Keyless entry system for the Jaguar I-pace?

It is known since 2011 that there is a security breach in all Keyless entry systems that allow thieves to pick up the signal from the key (while inside the house) and sends it out again, extending the signal range, as without problem can just open the car (without braking glass or forcing the door).

This would allow thieves to steal airbags, personal stuff or navigation system - in certain cases they could even start the car and drive away.
Another potential bigger problem is that Dutch certification institute Kiwa might reject the security system with as result that insurance companies will not pay out in case of theft or damage.

Needless to say that I am feeling unease by the prospect of my car being stolen and I would be surprised and shocked of buying a brand new high end luxury car that would delivered with a serious breach in its security systems.

See this news article link - it is Dutch but used google translate below
https://nos.nl/artikel/2248632-kraken-van-slimme-autosleutel-nu-populairder-dan-ruitje-intikken.html

A 'smart' key that automatically unlocks the car: it sounds very comfortable, but in many cases your car is easy to steal or break open. This happens so often that measures are being taken: from next year cars with unsafe systems will be rejected.

Security researchers have known for years that so-called passive car keys are easy to crack. Nevertheless, almost all cars of 2017 and older are to be cracked by thieves with such a system. That says the inspection authority for car security, Kiwa SCM, against the NOS.

These are car keys that automatically unlock the car when they are physically in the vicinity of the car. "Even 90 percent of the cars that this year of the band rolls and has such a system is vulnerable," says Henk van Vliet of the inspection authority.

Thieves, for example, abuse the systems to steal cars, or to break in and, for example, remove the airbag or the navigation system from the car. This is possible without the key in the vicinity of the car.

Measures
Exactly how often that happens is difficult to say, but according to Kiwa it is often enough to reject cars with insecure systems from the first quarter of 2019 onwards. The inspection authority does this if it has strong suspicions that a theft method is often used.

Rejection means that buyers of these cars can get problems with their insurance. This mainly concerns more expensive cars, says Jochum Veerman of the Independer comparison site. "From a catalog value of 50,000 euros, most insurers require approval of the security system."

If a car does not have this approval, the insurance does not turn out in case of damage or theft. "A buyer of a rejected car can prevent this by having a security system installed himself", says Van Vliet.

In the case of cars that are already moving, the security system is not rejected afterwards, but owners can get into trouble if their car keys are misused for burglary. This can be difficult to prove without any break in damages.
 

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Interesting article Jelle, I wasn't aware of this being an issue. Wonder how the leasecompanies deal with the issue if this applies to the I-Pace.

"(...) In the case of cars that are already moving, the security system is not rejected afterwards, but owners can get into trouble if their car keys are misused for burglary. This can be difficult to prove without any break in damages." - So...these owners are screwed unless they first break in to their own home before reporting theft...
 

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Raeth said:
Interesting article Jelle, I wasn't aware of this being an issue. Wonder how the leasecompanies deal with the issue if this applies to the I-Pace.
My lease company (Arval) requires a LoJack system to be installed. Doesn't help against opening the car and stealing stuff, but helps for the recovery of the car... So also I am curious how secure the keyless entry is, although my keys are more than two meter away from the frontdoor or windows anyway.
 

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If the key system is the same as LR vehicles, you can turn off the keyless entry signals as shown in the video below.

I'm not sure, but I think the keyless start part of the system will still work.


This will at least stop the possibility of waking up to find your new i-Pace gone from the drive. And at least JLR have a key where it can be disabled by the user - my e-tron can't be turned off and so we now keep the keys in special pouches when inside the house.
 

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The most effective and inexpensive solution to stopping keyless entry theft is to use a Faraday pouch to keep your keys in overnight.

Something like these from ebay . . . https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=faraday%20pouch&ssPageName=GSTL

It's really easy to get into the habit of just putting your keyfob into one of these and they are very effective, they completely block any signal from your fob which a car thief could try to use to amplify/relay to gain entry to your car. If your fob is in one of these pouches you can even stand right next to your car and it will not unlock. I have individual pouches for each keyfob we have in the house, one for the main fob I use regularly and one for the spare second fob which I keep in a safe place out of the way. Provides a very cheap effective solution and great peace of mind, so why not?
 

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catwoman said:
The most effective and inexpensive solution to stopping keyless entry theft is to use a Faraday pouch to keep your keys in overnight.

Something like these from ebay . . . https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=faraday%20pouch&ssPageName=GSTL

It's really easy to get into the habit of just putting your keyfob into one of these and they are very effective, they completely block any signal from your fob which a car thief could try to use to amplify/relay to gain entry to your car. If your fob is in one of these pouches you can even stand right next to your car and it will not unlock. I have individual pouches for each keyfob we have in the house, one for the main fob I use regularly and one for the spare second fob which I keep in a safe place out of the way. Provides a very cheap effective solution and great peace of mind, so why not?
You already answered the "why not" yourself: you need to develop a new habit of removing the keys from your bags/jacket every time and putting them into a pouch and later removing them from the pouch again and putting them back in your bag/jacket every time. That makes keyless entry useless and then you'd rather turn keyless entry off at all. If I need to remove the keys from a pouch anyway, I could press the unlock button as well... So I hope JLR improved the security of the system so Keyless entry can still work as designed...
 
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The best solution is a steering lock!

Not mater what ANY company does the thieves are always one step ahead. Physical hard locks are the only way to be sure to stop the thief of a car, and use Faraday cage (As In a bag or tin - the tin is easier as you just throw the keys in the tin when you get home).

Use a steering lock, a driveway pole, lockable gates, etc... as every physical lock is time the thieves don't have and will make your car less of a target.

I know my F-Pace was stolen from my driveway in 2016.
It took them seconds to open the car with a key booster, but then 45mins to hack the software so the car could be driven without a key present - police suspect this is restoring it "factory mode" before a key is assigned to the cars ECU. They then drove off .... took them 50mins in total at 3am.

Cloud Microphone Flash photography Plant Petal
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
catwoman said:
The most effective and inexpensive solution to stopping keyless entry theft is to use a Faraday pouch to keep your keys in overnight.

Something like these from ebay . . . https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=faraday%20pouch&ssPageName=GSTL

It's really easy to get into the habit of just putting your keyfob into one of these and they are very effective, they completely block any signal from your fob which a car thief could try to use to amplify/relay to gain entry to your car. If your fob is in one of these pouches you can even stand right next to your car and it will not unlock. I have individual pouches for each keyfob we have in the house, one for the main fob I use regularly and one for the spare second fob which I keep in a safe place out of the way. Provides a very cheap effective solution and great peace of mind, so why not?
Thank you for advising possible solutions - my point it that why do we need the solution in the first place. When you buy a €90k-€100k car - you should be able to depend on the car manufacturer to provide you a high quality and secured car and not have to solve problems yourself.

If this was an issue only discovered recently then I can fully understand however the security breach in Keyless entry is known since 2011 and a well known problem in the entire car industry - hence I expect the car manufacturer to have solved the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Jelle v/d Meer said:
Thank you for advising possible solutions - my point it that why do we need the solution in the first place. When you buy a €90k-€100k car - you should be able to depend on the car manufacturer to provide you a high quality and secured car and not have to solve problems yourself.

If this was an issue only discovered recently then I can fully understand however the security breach in Keyless entry is known since 2011 and a well known problem in the entire car industry - hence I expect the car manufacturer to have solved the problem.
The solution from Jaguar could also be is providing 2 Faraday pouches (with nice Jaguar branding) with your car - maybe not the ideal solution but at least the manufacturer solved the problem instead of the customer.
 

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Snoerd said:
So I hope JLR improved the security of the system so Keyless entry can still work as designed
Some people just don't seem to want to do anything to help themselves. Snoerd, keyless entry is not secure technology, but you are perfectly at liberty to just keep your keyfob in your jacket pocket all the time, without any of the inconvenience (?) of taking it out and putting it in a pouch. Maybe you don't think the inconvenience of having your car stolen would be worse! The point is, it is a quick, simple, effective solution which costs less than a tenner, far better than "hope" :roll:
 
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NO car company can keep ahead of thieves ... it's
Impossible.

Car Manufacturer improves security ...
Thief finds a way to break it ...
Car Manufacturer fixes issue ...
Theif finds a way to break it again ...
<repeat>

As I previously stated if you want you car stopped from being stolen the invest in as many physical deterrents as you can and a faraday tin for your keys.

Or just moan when you car was stole it was Jaguars fault!
 

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Yes as things are going their will be more ppl able to crack electronic than physical locks ....
U cancelled t do anything against keyless amplifiers. They transmit the code between key and the car as u were close to it. They can even do it when u return in the street with a transmitter.
Only way is to place the key in farraday"s pouch but that makes it useless.
Maybe next step will be to add fingerpad on the car's door.
 

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Tophe74 said:
Maybe next step will be to add fingerpad on the car's door.
This has already been considered by at least 2 large car manufacturers who rejected it as they didn't want to be associated in the press with having the first owners to have fingers cut off by ruthless thieves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Tophe74 said:
Yes as things are going their will be more ppl able to crack electronic than physical locks ....
U cancelled t do anything against keyless amplifiers. They transmit the code between key and the car as u were close to it. They can even do it when u return in the street with a transmitter.
Only way is to place the key in farraday"s pouch but that makes it useless.
Maybe next step will be to add fingerpad on the car's door.
To my understanding BMW already has upgraded their Keyless entry system to make it more difficult or at the moment impossible to make the system believe the keys are nearby while they are not.

But indeed like with any criminal arms race - the criminals tend to be always ahead of police and car manufacturers't mean car manufacturers should be lazy and take a long time to respond. In this case a problem known since 2011, improvement solutions known for years yet not being used.

Regardless of what the car manufacturer does, as consumer you should always take measures that reduces the risk of your car getting stole or broken into for airbag etc. The faraday pouches seems an easy inexpensive effective method probably together with keeping the keys further away from windows/front door.

Personally not a favourite of clamps or steer locks as it helps against theft but not against your airbags or navigation being stolen for the spare parts black market.
 

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MiCoHi said:
Tophe74 said:
Maybe next step will be to add fingerpad on the car's door.
This has already been considered by at least 2 large car manufacturers who rejected it as they didn't want to be associated in the press with having the first owners to have fingers cut off by ruthless thieves.
Only a big faraday-cage can protect agains that. Is called a prison.. Better to put the thieves in there than your key.
 
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The simplest solution is to be able to turn the keyless-entry key's signal OFF. Some manufacturers offer this function - though it's not always obvious, requiring a double button press or a combination of pushes on the key. I will certainly speak to my dealer about this before taking delivery, to find out if the Jaguar keys have this function.
 

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I learnt today that Tesla is reinforcing the encryption on the next OTA upgrade, even though only 16 Tesla have been stolen
 

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mjc said:
The simplest solution is to be able to turn the keyless-entry key's signal OFF. Some manufacturers offer this function - though it's not always obvious, requiring a double button press or a combination of pushes on the key. I will certainly speak to my dealer about this before taking delivery, to find out if the Jaguar keys have this function.
I've already shown you the video on how to do this.
 

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Tophe74 said:
Ok but then the keyless function is useless for opening the door.
That's why it has things called buttons on the key fob. It's a major drag, but if you can be bothered pressing the buttons, you'll find that they will actually lock and unlock the car while keyless entry is disabled. :lol:
 
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