[GSIpace]

Over the past few days I've been reading this thread with a sense of trepidation. While obviously a number of incidents have occurred involving sudden acceleration, and we should all be grateful that to date no serious injuries or deaths have been detailed, the accepted bottomline seems to be that these are "probably" human error.
Muscle memory and reflex movements are real things that are learnt by humans. We should not be limiting technology because some humans refuse to learn and adapt. After driving with regen brakes for a while presumably your muscle memory or reflexes would tell you to take your foot off the throttle.
Every new car has a learning curve for the driver. As drivers, of any car, it is our responsibility to pay attention to which buttons we press (gears selected), and which pedal our foot is on. If they are too close to press one without engaging the other then that IS a problem, but pressing the R or the D buttons is not a design problem.
The arguments presented above would seem to suggest that antilock brakes should be outlawed because most drivers beyond a certain age learnt to pump their brakes to stop in the shortest distance and avoid skidding.
I'm all for showing compassion and support, but let's stop blaming the tools and accept that the user of the tool is the responsible entity.

As you point out, muscle memory is something which is learnt, however reflex action is not. It is similar to what happens when one touches something red hot. Even before you perceive it is hot, reflex action kicks in and the hand is pulled back immediately. Reflex action is the body's attempt to prevent harm. This is completely involuntary and therefore by definition happens before one gets time process information and think.
Lets all be drive careful and be safe.

 

[Qtown Charger]

As you point out, muscle memory is something which is learnt, however reflex action is not. It is similar to what happens when one touches something red hot. Even before you perceive it is hot, reflex action kicks in and the hand is pulled back immediately. Reflex action is the body's attempt to prevent harm. This is completely involuntary and therefore by definition happens before one gets time process information and think.
Lets all be drive careful and be safe.

Ever heard of Pavlov and his dogs?

 

[GSIpace]

Ever heard of Pavlov and his dogs?

Even salivation is involuntary!

 

[Qtown Charger]

Even salivation is involuntary!

Try googling "conditioned reflex" and get back to me.

What you are decribing is a learnt or trained behavior. Otherwise, we would have to accept that we are hardwired (genetically) to stamp your foot to the floor to stop. I sincerely doubt that neanderthals, cavemen or our ancestral apes were hardwired to stop in this manner.
Conversely, as humans we have learnt to pass the blame in adverse situations.

 

[ICDP_EV]

Try googling "conditioned reflex" and get back to me.

What you are decribing is a learnt or trained behavior. Otherwise, we would have to accept that we are hardwired (genetically) to stamp your foot to the floor to stop. I sincerely doubt that neanderthals, cavemen or our ancestral apes were hardwired to stop in this manner.
Conversely, as humans we have learnt to pass the blame in adverse situations.

I have to agree with this. I don't think reflex action is at play here with sudden unintended acceleration. Most people learn to drive a car with the underlying concept of using the brakes to stop. In fact I would go so far as to claim that training to use complex machinery such as cars or aircraft is about suppressing those reflexes and staying calm. Putting someone trained and conditioned for years (or decades) to use a brake pedal to stop, into an EV with one pedal driving is forcing them to recondition and retrain. Some people take to it very easily and others don't and like everything it just takes practice to get that "muscle memory". The problem is that there is an increased risk of error during that retraining or reconditioning phase. Add to that the fact that humans are reluctant to accept blame, or are just convinced they did everything right. Well the result is that you have people absolutely 100% convinced "it was the cars fault".

As a caveat. My own experience is that when switching back and forth from a car that does one pedal driving, to a car where you use the brake pedal to stop can be risky. So it is only common sense that I configure the cars to behave as similarly as possible. This is not the same as me stating one pedal driving sucks.

 

[GSIpace]

I have to agree with this. I don't think reflex action is at play here with sudden unintended acceleration. Most people learn to drive a car with the underlying concept of using the brakes to stop. In fact I would go so far as to claim that training to use complex machinery such as cars or aircraft is about suppressing those reflexes and staying calm. Putting someone trained and conditioned for years (or decades) to use a brake pedal to stop, into an EV with one pedal driving is forcing them to recondition and retrain. Some people take to it very easily and others don't and like everything it just takes practice to get that "muscle memory". The problem is that there is an increased risk of error during that retraining or reconditioning phase. Add to that the fact that humans are reluctant to accept blame, or are just convinced they did everything right. Well the result is that you have people absolutely 100% convinced "it was the cars fault".

As a caveat. My own experience is that when switching back and forth from a car that does one pedal driving, to a car where you use the brake pedal to stop can be risky. So it is only common sense that I configure the cars to behave as similarly as possible. This is not the same as me stating one pedal driving sucks.

You have explained this very well. I agree there is increased risk of error during the retraining phase. This is exactly my point too. And this might be there reason many here have accidentally hit the wrong pedal due to muscle memory. The situations described here do not appear to be emergencies. They appear more like retained muscle memory.
However, I still believe that in an emergency, reflexes could kick in and the risk of risk of hitting the wrong pedal is even higher.
Drivers have to adopt techniques which are safe to themselves and others. However, good design plays big part in ease of use and decreasing the chance of human error. Considering that vehicles have a huge potential to kill someone, pedestrians and the occupants in the vehicle, if involved in an accident, it is imperative that vehicle manufacturers research these thoroughly and adopt designs which will minimise chance of human error.

 

[ANBO]

Don't really agree the conditioning with an ICE will cause you to press the wrong pedal in an emergency, because the brake and accelerator pedals are still the same. It's not like switching from manual to automatic, where you press through the floor or the other way around and stall your car.

I do agree that the response may be delayed. Expecting regeneration to slow you down sufficiently. Combined with the new behaviour to hover over the accelerator instead of the brake pedal, this makes the overall response very late on occasion. When the response is delayed, this can trigger a panic reaction, leading to errors.

My experience in situations where I have to brake quickly is that my shoe tends to hook below the brake pedal brake, because it is significantly higher than the accelerator pedal and they are very close to each other.

 

[ICDP_EV]

If there was no real transition issue we would not be having this conversation. Or hearing people say "one pedal driving just takes a bit of getting used to".

I found the I-Pace pedal arrangement is not any different than pretty much every other automatic car I have ever driven. Though my experience was a 30 - 45 minute test drive.

 

[ANBO]

Just don't agree that you press the accelerator instead of the brake while driving because of 1 pedal ability. Certainly not if you just switched from an ICE. Such pedal mistake can and does happen to drivers in any car.

I do agree though that in an EV without creep you are much more likely to find yourself in a situation where you are in Ready, Drive and auto-hold without your foot on the brake. Then moving in and pressing the wrong pedal is instant launch.

So also in an EV it is important to maintain good driving habits and have your foot on the brake unless you are in P.

 

[ICDP_EV]

The good driving habits point is a good one but I frequently see people who drive ICE cars hover over the accelerator when staionary. So it is not unique to EVs in that regard. This thread is about is the concept that some EVs (such as the I-Pace) suffer from Sudden Unintended Acceleration.

I think we all agree that there are multiple factors at play and all we have been doing is positing what we feel to be possible causes. From what I have read the concensus seems to be "human error".

 

[ANBO]

In a way I hope so. The idea of a technical error of this kind is scary. Let's see what Jaguar says.

Wish all those affected well.

 

[ICDP_EV]

Totally agree on that score. The idea that a car might decide to shoot forward on its own is a scary one. Thankfully nobody was hurt in the instances descirbed in this thread.

I remember a good 20+ year ago when a friend got one of those new cars (an automatic VW Golf) that "turns itself off to save fuel". He got out of it in a garage forecourt to get something from the shop and the car turned itself off while still in gear. When was getting back in to the car he accidentally hit the throttle and the car started back up again. It shot forward with him half in and half out of the car and hanging onto the door for grim life. It hit a wall with such force that it knocked itself into reverse and shot accross the forecourt again reversing into another wall.

The car was an a total write off and there was two walls that had to be repaired. He was lucky not to be hurt and that no innocent bystanders were hurt. It was also sheer chance it didn't crash into some of the fuel pumps.

 

[scm]

I remember a good 20+ year ago when a friend got one of those new cars (an automatic VW Golf) that "turns itself off to save fuel". He got out of it in a garage forecourt to get something from the shop and the car turned itself off while still in gear. When was getting back in to the car he accidentally hit the throttle and the car started back up again. It shot forward with him half in and half out of the car and hanging onto the door for grim life. It hit a wall with such force that it knocked itself into reverse and shot accross the forecourt again reversing into another wall.

Leaving the car with the keys in the ignition (I'm assuming no keyless start back then) is a very silly thing to do. Lots of opportunist thieves hang around forecourts waiting for people like that.

 

[ICDP_EV]

He had a passenger in the car at the time.

 

[scm]

No excuse, unless he didn't mind his passenger being stolen, too..

 

[Qtown Charger]

Totally agree on that score. The idea that a car might decide to shoot forward on its own is a scary one. Thankfully nobody was hurt in the instances descirbed in this thread.

I remember a good 20+ year ago when a friend got one of those new cars (an automatic VW Golf) that "turns itself off to save fuel". He got out of it in a garage forecourt to get something from the shop and the car turned itself off while still in gear. When was getting back in to the car he accidentally hit the throttle and the car started back up again. It shot forward with him half in and half out of the car and hanging onto the door for grim life. It hit a wall with such force that it knocked itself into reverse and shot accross the forecourt again reversing into another wall.

The car was an a total write off and there was two walls that had to be repaired. He was lucky not to be hurt and that no innocent bystanders were hurt. It was also sheer chance it didn't crash into some of the fuel pumps.

Once again, an example of human error. Although in this case I would agree with your earlier comments regarding design contributing to the error. This would seem like a VW liability issue.

While I have no experience of these early examples where the engine turns off to save gas, we currently own a recent model BMW, and I can assure you that lifting your foot off the brake pedal is enough to prompt the engine to restart. Thus, this scenario cannot happen.

In the I-Pace, the brake hold could be seen in the same light, but it really is the responsibility of the driver to ensure that moving the car is both safe and under control. Forgetting which gear (D, N, P or R) is selected is irresponsible and shows a lack of attention to detail.

 

[scm]

While I have no experience of these early examples where the engine turns off to save gas, we currently own a recent model BMW, and I can assure you that lifting your foot off the brake pedal is enough to prompt the engine to restart. Thus, this scenario cannot happen.

Jaguar ICE cars do the same. A bit annoying actually, since I like to use the park brake when I stop at traffic lights, etc. to avoid dazzling the following vehicle with my brake lights.

 

[ICDP_EV]

Once again, an example of human error. Although in this case I would agree with your earlier comments regarding design contributing to the error. This would seem like a VW liability issue.

Yep, agree with this assessment but the insurance company didn't.

 

[ICDP_EV]

Jaguar ICE cars do the same. A bit annoying actually, since I like to use the park brake when I stop at traffic lights, etc. to avoid dazzling the following vehicle with my brake lights.

I was taught to put the car in neutral (only with manual gears) and apply the handbrake AND the footbrake. Only release the footbrake when the vehicles behind you have stopped. This is so cars behind you see your brake lights and know you are stopped.

 

[electric beagle]

No excuse, unless he didn't mind his passenger being stolen, too..

I shall start leaving my keys in the car then when my wife is in it 😂