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Does anyone use the granny lead off an extension cable

24K views 48 replies 26 participants last post by  Maxwell_400 
#1 ·
Just curious.

The charge cycle offered by the granny lead should more than suit our charging needs 99% of the time

Just weighing up costs /pros / cons of having a charge point or a quality 13a extension cable and use the granny cable.
 
G
#27 ·
Pcheaven said:
mjc said:
As others comment, the limiting factor is the ability of the standard 13A UK plug to deliver ~10A drain current, over 30-40 Hours, without overheating. The Jaguar 'Granny Charger' has special cabling that incorporates sensors, into the custom 13A plug, to detect any overheating of the plug pins - it will therefore shut down demand if it senses those pins overheating. If you use an extension lead or other intermediate cabling between your 13A socket and the Jaguar 'Granny Charger', the other 13A plugs will not have any overheating detection.
Interesting. How do we know there are sensors in the plug?
I tried to find the specifications. No luck

TBH. If you can't draw 10a from a 3 pin socket, then the quality of the product and it's construction/ installation must be suspect.

I did a couple of full charges using my granny lead and extension. It didn't even get warm.
The Jaguar product is quite happy charging for extended periods, the 'unknown' is the quality of the socket, and its mating to the 13A plug. Mine has never cut-out, but I can feel that the plug does warm up noticably, if not reaching high temperature. If you happen to X-Ray the cable/plug ( ;) ) you will see that it has 3 high current leads (E-L-N) and three sensor wires, running its entire length. The three sensor wires connect to what look like two thermistors, positioned close to the live and neutral plug pins. I do not recommend cutting the cable to prove this :)
 
#28 ·
mjc said:
If you happen to X-Ray the cable/plug ( ;) ) you will see that it has 3 high current leads (E-L-N) and three sensor wires, running its entire length. The three sensor wires connect to what look like two thermistors, positioned close to the live and neutral plug pins. I do not recommend cutting the cable to prove this :)
I stand corrected!

But I don't see any real benefit. It can detect overheating of the plug/cable, but any problem will be upstream of that - the house wiring or the extension lead. The only thing this will protect against is a bad (high resistance) connection between the plug pins and the socket it is in.

So, if it's ok to plug the GC into a particular socket, then using a good quality extension lead will be fine too - the only possible problems would be in the extension lead, which, almost by definition, is going to be outside the house and not a fire risk.

Probably worth putting your hand on the extension lead plug after half an hour to check, though....
 
#29 ·
DougTheMac said:
Probably worth putting your hand on the extension lead plug after half an hour to check, though....
I did. It wasn't warm. So happy using the extension lead I mentioned previously.

TBH. It's in my froot, as I only use my home charge point now that's it's installed. I just carry the GL and extension cable for emergencies.
 
#30 ·
Is there an issue of Efficiency charging at 13AMPs vs. dedicated 7kW wall charger? I use a 3rd party data logging tool (in my case a Tesla, not iPace) and it reports efficiency (although I have no idea how, given that it cannot know what the upstream value is, only the received amount) and it always reports lower for 13AMP charges than my 7kW wall charger (and also reports lower for Home 7KW than Work; Work is also single phase charger but straight off a 3-phase supply; Home supply has a compromised supply cable size, so that might be a reason).

Example charging :

Home 7kW reports Avg Voltage - 231.88V Max Voltage - 234V Efficiency 89.7 %
Work 7kW reports Avg Voltage - 237.99V Max Voltage - 245V Efficiency 91.0 %

Charging at friends house (same for both), 13AMP extension cable + Tesla UMC cable, pre-conditioning etc. would have been off, but unlike iPace Tesla has some parasitic usage

12.1 hours charging, Used - 28.4 kWh (How does it know?!) Added - 21.96 kWh, Avg Voltage - 235.01V Max Voltage - 239V Efficiency 77.3 %
8.75 hours charging, Used - 20.3 kWh Added - 15.66 kWh, Avg Voltage - 232.2V Max Voltage - 237V Efficiency 77.0 %

Perhaps also an issue if preconditioning the car whilst battery charging? I don't know how much of 13AMP that would be, but as a percentage it would be less on 7kW Natch!
 
#31 ·
TeslaDriver said:
Is there an issue of Efficiency charging at 13AMPs vs. dedicated 7kW wall charger?

unlike iPace Tesla has some parasitic usage

Perhaps also an issue if preconditioning the car whilst battery charging? I don't know how much of 13AMP that would be, but as a percentage it would be less on 7kW Natch!
A very good question. As you say, you'd expect the losses with the GC to be a higher %. If the battery is starting from cold in cold weather and has to be warmed to c30degC, that's a lot of energy and I'd expect the efficiency to be very low at the start of the charge.

Has anyone monitored this? I haven't even tried my GC yet.

And I don't know where you get the idea that "unlike iPace Tesla has some parasitic usage". I-Pace certainly will have charging losses. I think you are referring to the fact that I-Pace has a very low "vampire drain" - loss of %SoC with time when not used.

And BTW, it may have a 13A plug on it, but it is limited to 10A...
 
#32 ·
DougTheMac said:
And I don't know where you get the idea that "unlike iPace Tesla has some parasitic usage". I-Pace certainly will have charging losses. I think you are referring to the fact that I-Pace has a very low "vampire drain" - loss of %SoC with time when not used.
There is a recent video by TeslaBjorn who measured the Vampire Drain on his new Model 3.
The figures are startling if you have 'sentry mode' enabled when compared to the I-Pace
 
#33 ·
DougTheMac said:
And I don't know where you get the idea that "unlike iPace Tesla has some parasitic usage". I-Pace certainly will have charging losses. I think you are referring to the fact that I-Pace has a very low "vampire drain" - loss of %SoC with time when not used.
yes, "Vampire Drain" was what I meant to say, thanks.

SammyD said:
There is a recent video by TeslaBjorn who measured the Vampire Drain on his new Model 3.
The figures are startling if you have 'sentry mode' enabled when compared to the I-Pace
not sure I would have called it "startling", Bjorn measured Sentry Mode at 52 Watts.

Bjorn does have massive Vampire Drain, but I suspect that is as a result of using multiple 3rd party loggers - given that he YouTubes about such stuff.

The 3rd party loggers are a bit of a problem, the one I use takes some juggling to get it to let the car "sleep" at appropriate times, but then to NOT miss a trip that I make (i.e. if it is ignoring the car at that time).

If I use multiple loggers, and additionally if (say) my wife and I spark up a Phone APP multiple times (she uses the Tesla one, I use a 3rd party one, which i suspect compounds the problem), they can conflict enough that the car never sleeps, and then the vampire drain is "continuous and maximum"

And if I leave the car for several days, unplugged, I need to take special care to consider the vampire drain of such "convenience apps". Easiest is just to turn everything off ... but then I also don't have any data about the car either ... Proper 1st world problem :)

Tesla clearly uses more juice just sitting still than iPace, Jag has done a good job there. Model-3 seems to be better in that regard than MS / MX - Bjorn measured that "vampire drain with everything off" as 25W on his Model-3 (his test was a one-shot though, so might not be fully representative)
 
#35 ·
The Granny Cable of the I-pace got the worst rating
https://electrek.co/2019/10/02/review-rating-oems-ev-charging-cords-tesla-audi-get-as-gm-jaguar-fail/#more-101798

Electrek said:
Review (F-): the Jaguar I-Pace charging cord

Completely unacceptable for a BEV starting at $70k. This might be the worst:

Con: only 120V, 5-15 plugs, and astoundingly, caps out at 10amps, instead of the 12 it should be getting. This is horrible. I can't believe Jaguar Landrover put their names to this garbage, even if it is just on a sticker.
According to posts on the I-Pace forum, the following message was sent to Jaguar dealers on July 13, 2018:

CHARGING CABLE - The previously communicated standard Multi-Function Charging Cable has been removed from the program and will be replaced with a standard Home Charging Cable, capable of charging via domestic sockets. This Home Charging Cable is not capable of Level 2 AC charging. As previously communicated, the preferred home charging solution for the customer is the Jaguar approved wall box which itself comes with a tethered charging cable.

What else in the I-Pace received zero thought or consideration?
 
#36 ·
Jelle v/d Meer said:
The Granny Cable of the I-pace got the worst rating
https://electrek.co/2019/10/02/review-rating-oems-ev-charging-cords-tesla-audi-get-as-gm-jaguar-fail/#more-101798

Electrek said:
Review (F-): the Jaguar I-Pace charging cord

Completely unacceptable for a BEV starting at $70k. This might be the worst:

Con: only 120V, 5-15 plugs, and astoundingly, caps out at 10amps, instead of the 12 it should be getting. This is horrible. I can't believe Jaguar Landrover put their names to this garbage, even if it is just on a sticker.
According to posts on the I-Pace forum, the following message was sent to Jaguar dealers on July 13, 2018:

CHARGING CABLE - The previously communicated standard Multi-Function Charging Cable has been removed from the program and will be replaced with a standard Home Charging Cable, capable of charging via domestic sockets. This Home Charging Cable is not capable of Level 2 AC charging. As previously communicated, the preferred home charging solution for the customer is the Jaguar approved wall box which itself comes with a tethered charging cable.

What else in the I-Pace received zero thought or consideration?
Only applicable in the US. U.K. and Europe did not get a 120 volt charger.
 
#37 ·
Abu Dhabi Dude said:
Only applicable in the US. U.K. and Europe did not get a 120 volt charger.
The charger is identical except for the plug and will only give 10 amps so issue is also applicable for EMEA.
 
#39 ·
Hi All,

While I wait for the my 7kWh wall charger to be installed I've been using the granny cable supplied with mu I-PACE. It is VERY slow, but gets there (first charge from 46% to 100% took 25 hours). Initially I used a "heavy" duty garden tool extension lead (fully unravelled) but the plug got quite warm and I was concerned so bought a better quality lead (with 1.5mm cores and heavy duty ends), this works well and will now live in my froot along with the granny cable: https://www.industrialextensionleads.co.uk/10m-single-socket-heavy-duty-13amp-black-extension-lead-10269-p.asp

Best, Rob
 
#40 ·
RobN said:
Hi All,

While I wait for the my 7kWh wall charger to be installed I've been using the granny cable supplied with mu I-PACE. It is VERY slow, but gets there (first charge from 46% to 100% took 25 hours). Initially I used a "heavy" duty garden tool extension lead (fully unravelled) but the plug got quite warm and I was concerned so bought a better quality lead (with 1.5mm cores and heavy duty ends), this works well and will now live in my froot along with the granny cable: https://www.industrialextensionleads.co.uk/10m-single-socket-heavy-duty-13amp-black-extension-lead-10269-p.asp

Best, Rob
I have been using the granny cable extensively last X-mas when in Slovak mountains as well as when visiting my parents. It always draws 2,204 watt (10amps * 220volt) per hour and tends to give an average of 2.25% SoC per hour.

84.7kWh / 100% * 2.25% = 1,906 watt compared to 2,204 watt would give a 13.5% loss which is slightly higher than the approx 10% loss I am getting on my home charger.
 
#41 ·
RobN said:
Hi All,

While I wait for the my 7kWh wall charger to be installed I've been using the granny cable supplied with mu I-PACE. It is VERY slow, but gets there (first charge from 46% to 100% took 25 hours). Initially I used a "heavy" duty garden tool extension lead (fully unravelled) but the plug got quite warm and I was concerned so bought a better quality lead (with 1.5mm cores and heavy duty ends), this works well and will now live in my froot along with the granny cable: https://www.industrialextensionleads.co.uk/10m-single-socket-heavy-duty-13amp-black-extension-lead-10269-p.asp

Best, Rob
In Italy it's forbidden to use an extension cable because you're loosing the thermal check at the main socket / granny plug.
That being said, 1.5mm2 is not enough for a contiuos 10A current flow. Much better a 2.5mm2, it will run much colder.
Also, for people with more than on EV, be adivsed that other granny leads can be bettet than the Jaguar one. For example BMW i3 granny lead is 12A. It's 20% more, still slow but at least a little bit faster ;)
 
#42 ·
kermit68 said:
That being said, 1.5mm2 is not enough for a contiuos 10A current flow. Much better a 2.5mm2, it will run much colder.
Source? 1.5mm^2 should be sufficient to run 16A up till 25m. Above 25m, 2.5mm^2 is recommended for 16A, but 10A should still be fine on 1.5mm^2.

I run 13A over a 40m long cable 3x1.5mm^2 without any heat noticable. I use blue CEE plugs and a Volvo V60 Charger (Mennekes brand) that works well on the iPace.

The charger is configurable on 6, 8, 10, 13 and 16A. Much better than the iPace granny charger.
 
#43 ·
Snoerd said:
kermit68 said:
That being said, 1.5mm2 is not enough for a contiuos 10A current flow. Much better a 2.5mm2, it will run much colder.
Source? 1.5mm^2 should be sufficient to run 16A up till 25m. Above 25m, 2.5mm^2 is recommended for 16A, but 10A should still be fine on 1.5mm^2.

I run 13A over a 40m long cable 3x1.5mm^2 without any heat noticable. I use blue CEE plugs and a Volvo V60 Charger (Mennekes brand) that works well on the iPace.

The charger is configurable on 6, 8, 10, 13 and 16A. Much better than the iPace granny charger.
There are several software you can use to calculate wire section according to current, wire lenght AND installation characteristics (single core wires, multi core wires, open air path, thru the wall path and so on). According to that, a 1.5mm2 multi core wire laying on the floor (such as an extension cable) can sustain 10A but it's very close to the limit hence the reported warming up (don't remeber the lengh but I'm assuning 10 meters). I would not run 12A on the same cable and absolutelty no way 16A.
Also, since the cost difference in raw materials for a single home installation is not so relelvant, I alwayas prefer to be on the safe side, so if the software suggest 1,5 mm2 but close to the limit, I'm going to ask for 2.5mm2. My wall box (16A) is connected by mean of a 30m single core set of wires and while the software suggested 2.5mm2 we used 4mm2. Less risk of fire and less energy dissipated for resistance. I never caluculated but it's even possible that after some years the overcost of the cable can be fully recovered because of its lower dissipation.
But, coming back to the extension cable topic, I think the real weak point is the socket / plug interface as normal domestic plugs are not deisgned for a continuos flow of high current. 10A is still acceptable for me, but for example 16A over a Schuco plug for hours is not going to make me feel confortable. And this is the reason the granny chargers alwyas have a thermal sensor in its plug, for safety.
 
#44 ·
While we are talking of cable loadings there have been fires caused by a continuous 30 amps - 7kw on a standard domestic fuse board. It is different to an electric shower where the load is only for a few minutes, my electrician advised a separate heavy duty breaker connected separately with heavy cable and 6mm cable to the 7kw charger, the extra cost is peanuts compared to the car.
If you've only got a 60Amp mains supply that may need upgrading too.
 
#45 ·
kermit68 said:
Also, since the cost difference in raw materials for a single home installation is not so relelvant, I alwayas prefer to be on the safe side, so if the software suggest 1,5 mm2 but close to the limit, I'm going to ask for 2.5mm2. My wall box (16A) is connected by mean of a 30m single core set of wires and while the software suggested 2.5mm2 we used 4mm2. Less risk of fire and less energy dissipated for resistance. I never caluculated but it's even possible that after some years the overcost of the cable can be fully recovered because of its lower dissipation.
I totally agree with this part. I even used 6mm^2 for my 3x32A capable charger (only connected to 1x24A at this point in time). Just to be future proof and on the safe side.

kermit68 said:
But, coming back to the extension cable topic, I think the real weak point is the socket / plug interface as normal domestic plugs are not deisgned for a continuos flow of high current. 10A is still acceptable for me, but for example 16A over a Schuco plug for hours is not going to make me feel confortable. And this is the reason the granny chargers alwyas have a thermal sensor in its plug, for safety.
Like I said, I run 13A over 40m of cable with 3x1,5mm^2. I let it running for a full night and sometimes the day after. It is allowed and works in practice without noticeable heat.

I agree on the Schuco plug. Both my charger as well as my extension cord use blue 16A CEE plugs (with converter cable to red 16A CEE if such a socket is available). I also used conductor end sleeves (or what is the correct English word for that?) for good connection from wire to connector. Never noticed heat around the plugs, although I did notice this with a cheap CEE->Schuco converter cable (at 10A). So quality matters.
 
#48 ·
#49 ·
Snoerd said:
Like I said, I run 13A over 40m of cable with 3x1,5mm^2. I let it running for a full night and sometimes the day after. It is allowed and works in practice without noticeable heat.
In my previous life I worked as an electrician and as long as this wire it is uncoiled, heat will not be a problem. In open air even 16 amps should not be a problem, however there is a limit on the fuse. If the resistance of the wire is too high the short circuit current will be too low for the fuse to work within specifications. And if you use Schuko it will most likely be the plug that will get hot, use CEE contacts instead, the earth wire is also much better connected. I am using a 3x6mm2 15m extension cord fused with 32A.
 
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