Tesla - Oh Dear..

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Terry60
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Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Terry60 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Chewy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:37 am
Thincat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:31 am

It's all very well for Chewy to advocate a reduction in range but he is capable of achieving 300 miles, what about us mear mortals who can only get 230? ;) I like the idea of a toggle so that on the very few occasions when I need the maximum possible range I could do so.
Ah, your post popped up before mine above :-)

I am all for the toggle idea of giving range rather than performance, similar to that provided by Tesla. What I am not so confident about is allowing the battery temperature control have a wider band to achieve it.
Isn't that Eco mode ?
It's always possible with a future SOTA that JLR could copy what Mercedes are doing, and use 2WD most of the time when the need for power and 4WD is absent.
According to FullyChargedShow that's how they get better MpkWh than the i-Pace in an equivalent car.
Ex A3 e-tron (138mpg over 4 years)
Now in Black HSE (every tech option, no bling)
Awaiting PV, Powerwall, Zappi.
Looking forward to free motoring. (barring the cost of all the kit !)
Guilt free at least.


Chewy
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Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Chewy » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:11 pm

Terry60 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Isn't that Eco mode ?
It's always possible with a future SOTA that JLR could copy what Mercedes are doing, and use 2WD most of the time when the need for power and 4WD is absent.
According to FullyChargedShow that's how they get better MpkWh than the i-Pace in an equivalent car.

No, ECO mode is not the same.

Why do you think 2WD will give better range than 4WD?

The I-Pace has two highly efficient PM motors fitted. These give better than 95% efficiency from 18mph up to 85mph [or thereabouts]. The car still requires the same force to move it whether it comes from one or two equally efficient motors, so no gain in turning one off. Don’t believe everything that “fully charged” tells you. Tesla turn one motor off when cruising because they have a less efficient motors and get better efficiency by transferring all the load to a single motor where they can be more efficiency under higher loading. With the newer tm3 and up and coming Raven version of the MS and MX, they have one PM motor and one Asynchronous motor. They can turn off the less efficient motor when it’s power is not needed to improve range, but they are still using the same energy to move the car.
Caesium Blue S. 18” Wheels.
250+ miles range driven in the winter.
300+ miles range driven in the summer.
S19A-07, H228


TeslaDriver
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Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by TeslaDriver » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:22 pm

Chewy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:33 am
My Tesla had the option of setting “Range Mode”
Jaguar could probably improve on this. Range Mode only makes a tangible difference on Teslas that have dual motors (of different sizes). The Big Motor can be turned off to cruise, more efficiently, on smaller motor at 70-ish MPH. (I know you know that Chewy :) so this just by way of "background")

Put your foot down and the big motor is brought to life. Not quite sure why this wouldn't be "default" at 70 MPH, rather than needing to explicitly select Range Mode?

However, Range Mode also throttles Climate and some other bits and bobs, and I am not sure that that energy-saved (on a 70 MPH journey) is worth saving. The Range Mode setting is all-or-nothing (but I do understand that "a whole raft of adjustments" is not going to be a solution for the majority of owners)
it also had another mode that calmed the performance of the car, where acceleration was slowed to 8 seconds for 0~60mph
When i was in short trousers sub-10s 0-60 was "awesome" and the stuff of wall posters !! Now even the most lowly EV can do that easily ...

Tesla "Chill mode" prevents whiplash for passengers :) but there is no kick-down so if you need full-power to avoid an incident it isn't available. Chill Mode was an SOTA after-thought ... but if it also had Kick Down then it would be perfect.

It hadn't occurred to me, until this thread, that Range might be influenced by BMS temperature range ... I think that would be very worthwhile.

Rapid D/C charging (100+kW) is "counted" by Tesla. After a certain number the 100+kW charge rate is throttled (not by much, initially, and successively more, but I don't think it slows more than, say, 10% ... maybe it (also?) tapers a bit sooner too.) Anyway, its a compromise. If using it for journeys when-needed, and getting "counted", might be acceptable? Would only actually need it on a leg that was touch-and-go ... so not even all long journeys. Whereas every time I stop at a Supercharger that's a "high speed D/C charge" on my counter ...

Some of this is a hidden-snag for 2nd hand buyers. "How many rapid D/C charges have you had" ... "How many Wide-temperature BMS journeys"

With an EV you can't just have a mate follow you on the test drive to see if clouds of black smoke come out of the exhaust every time you change gear ... a la ICE :)


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Terry60
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Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Terry60 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:53 pm

Chewy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:11 pm
Terry60 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Isn't that Eco mode ?
It's always possible with a future SOTA that JLR could copy what Mercedes are doing, and use 2WD most of the time when the need for power and 4WD is absent.
According to FullyChargedShow that's how they get better MpkWh than the i-Pace in an equivalent car.

No, ECO mode is not the same.

Why do you think 2WD will give better range than 4WD?

The I-Pace has two highly efficient PM motors fitted. These give better than 95% efficiency from 18mph up to 85mph [or thereabouts]. The car still requires the same force to move it whether it comes from one or two equally efficient motors, so no gain in turning one off. Don’t believe everything that “fully charged” tells you. Tesla turn one motor off when cruising because they have a less efficient motors and get better efficiency by transferring all the load to a single motor where they can be more efficiency under higher loading. With the newer tm3 and up and coming Raven version of the MS and MX, they have one PM motor and one Asynchronous motor. They can turn off the less efficient motor when it’s power is not needed to improve range, but they are still using the same energy to move the car.
You'd think it would be simple arithmetic; mass of car, speed, rolling resistance, aceleration, etc, but in that case, similar cars would be equally efficient.
I don't know what your prejudice against Fully Charged Show is, but they were merely the conduit for information coming from Mercedes, who claim that their better MpkWh figures are down to the way they manage the use of their motors (including not using them both all the time), and I guess they would know better than us.
Ex A3 e-tron (138mpg over 4 years)
Now in Black HSE (every tech option, no bling)
Awaiting PV, Powerwall, Zappi.
Looking forward to free motoring. (barring the cost of all the kit !)
Guilt free at least.


Chewy
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Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Chewy » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:12 pm

Let me rephrase that...

Why do you think 2WD will give better range than 4WD with the I-Pace?

I don’t think Mercedes give “ better MpkWh” than Tesla, nor Kia, nor Hyundai, nor Nissan, nor Jaguar, nor MG, and probably even than Audi.

They may get better figures in their own car by running one rather than two motors, but Tesla can achieve the same and “better”.

It’s car companies that “know better than us” that has resulted in Tesla being so far out in front.
Caesium Blue S. 18” Wheels.
250+ miles range driven in the winter.
300+ miles range driven in the summer.
S19A-07, H228


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Terry60
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Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Terry60 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:57 pm

You are answering your own question.
"...They may get better figures in their own car by running one rather than two motors..."
I never compared them to Tesla or anyone else.
We were all talking about ways and means of range improvements by manipulating the ECU firmware of any individual marque/model.
Ex A3 e-tron (138mpg over 4 years)
Now in Black HSE (every tech option, no bling)
Awaiting PV, Powerwall, Zappi.
Looking forward to free motoring. (barring the cost of all the kit !)
Guilt free at least.


Chewy
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:46 pm
Location: Forest of Dean. UK.

Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Chewy » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:05 pm

Terry60 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:57 pm
You are answering your own question.
"...They may get better figures in their own car by running one rather than two motors..."
I never compared them to Tesla or anyone else.
We were all talking about ways and means of range improvements by manipulating the ECU firmware of any individual marque/model.
Terry60 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:57 pm
You are answering your own question.
"...They may get better figures in their own car by running one rather than two motors..."
I never compared them to Tesla or anyone else.
We were all talking about ways and means of range improvements by manipulating the ECU firmware of any individual marque/model.
Steps back :-)
Caesium Blue S. 18” Wheels.
250+ miles range driven in the winter.
300+ miles range driven in the summer.
S19A-07, H228


TeslaDriver
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by TeslaDriver » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:43 am

Chewy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:12 pm
It’s car companies that “know better than us” that has resulted in Tesla being so far out in front.
Nicked!


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Terry60
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Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Terry60 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:32 pm

TeslaDriver wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:43 am
Chewy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:12 pm
It’s car companies that “know better than us” that has resulted in Tesla being so far out in front.
Nicked!
I think several years head start might be part of the reason.
Tesla probably had their version of the iPace firmware niggles sorted in the Lotus Roadster
Starman is probably out there in Elon's #1 searching for his creep widget as we speak.
Ex A3 e-tron (138mpg over 4 years)
Now in Black HSE (every tech option, no bling)
Awaiting PV, Powerwall, Zappi.
Looking forward to free motoring. (barring the cost of all the kit !)
Guilt free at least.


Chewy
Posts: 1441
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:46 pm
Location: Forest of Dean. UK.

Re: Tesla - Oh Dear..

Post by Chewy » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:47 pm

TeslaDriver wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:43 am
Chewy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:12 pm
It’s car companies that “know better than us” that has resulted in Tesla being so far out in front.
Nicked!
Darn !
Caesium Blue S. 18” Wheels.
250+ miles range driven in the winter.
300+ miles range driven in the summer.
S19A-07, H228


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