[oliviaday]

Hi Dave, I'm a journalist currently working on a story on this exact issue with the Jaguar I-Pace. Could you please contact me on Olivia.Day@mailonline.com

 

[Slartibartfast]

You're certainly persistent, @oliviaday

We all know that whatever info you glean from here will be turned into a misleading bit of sensationalist crap intended to keep the Mail readership foaming at the mouth with anti-EV outrage, don't we?

 

[Qtown Charger]

Hi Dave, I'm a journalist currently working on a story on this exact issue with the Jaguar I-Pace. Could you please contact me on Olivia.Day@mailonline.com

I'm glad to see that the forum is being used as a useful resource, but do the world a favor and write a carefully researched article with data and analysis rather than relying upon testimony from the one person with something to gain from such an incident being defined as a vehicle fault/error/limitation etc.

Read what has been posted here and other places, analyse the situations and don't jump to conclusions. To date no posters have provided definitive data/evidence of such incidents being anything other than user error (foot on wrong pedal), and until such is provided no conclusions regarding the safety of EV's (or other vehicles involved in similar incidents) should be made.

Many have already decided your article will be a "hit job" - prove us wrong and show that you can write a detailed accurate educated piece that I'm sure you've been trained to write.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I'm glad to see that the forum is being used as a useful resource, but do the world a favor and write a carefully researched article with data and analysis rather than relying upon testimony from the one person with something to gain from such an incident being defined as a vehicle fault/error/limitation etc.

Read what has been posted here and other places, analyse the situations and don't jump to conclusions. To date no posters have provided definitive data/evidence of such incidents being anything other than user error (foot on wrong pedal), and until such is provided no conclusions regarding the safety of EV's (or other vehicles involved in similar incidents) should be made.

Many have already decided your article will be a "hit job" - prove us wrong and show that you can write a detailed accurate educated piece that I'm sure you've been trained to write.

I guess you're not familiar with the Mail. It specialises in mindless sensationalist rants and has a strong anti-EV philosophy. As a media outlet it only exists to get its readers foaming at the mouth with outrage. There is a far greater chance of the Friesian cow I'm looking at out of my study window right now suddenly leaping up and jumping over the moon than there is of the Mail ever publishing an honest and unbiased story about anything.

 

[Qtown Charger]

I guess you're not familiar with the Mail. It specialises in mindless sensationalist rants and has a strong anti-EV philosophy. As a media outlet it only exists to get its readers foaming at the mouth with outrage. There is a far greater chance of the Friesian cow I'm looking at out of my study window right now suddenly leaping up and jumping over the moon than there is of the Mail ever publishing an honest and unbiased story about anything.

Unfortunately I am, having grown up in the northern Hants area. But, I'm the eternal optimist and like to challenge folks to be the best they can be.🙂

 

[ICDP_EV]

This has now made it to a mail online story, no I won’t link it.

At least they did allow an EV owner to respond that sudden unintended acceleration is not an EV only thing and that they have not experienced any such issues.

What I found telling was that a couple of their videos of these out of control I-Paces had zero brake lights active. So these people claim the car accelerates and they pressed the brakes, yet no brake lights were seen.

Sorry but I believe these are 100% driver error and I would wager almost every incident has involved OPD (high regen) being enabled. This is not an attack on OPD, it’s pointing out that some people simply cannot get used to this new driving style easily IMHO.

 

[6225]

Left foot braking is a useful skill to learn.

 

[Aurora Blue]

This has now made it to a mail online story, no I won’t link it.

At least they did allow an EV owner to respond that sudden unintended acceleration is not an EV only thing and that they have not experienced any such issues.

What I found telling was that a couple of their videos of these out of control I-Paces had zero brake lights active. So these people claim the car accelerates and they pressed the brakes, yet no brake lights were seen.

Sorry but I believe these are 100% driver error and I would wager almost every incident has involved OPD (high regen) being enabled. This is not an attack on OPD, it’s pointing out that some people simply cannot get used to this new driving style easily IMHO.

Good morning ICDP_EV

I agree with you and I do think that in most cases it’s highly likely that it’s misplacement of the driving foot and inability to adapt completely. Also sometimes ‘brain farts’ happen and it’s simply that. So I don’t disagree with anything you have said.

However, on both my own iPace and on the BMW iX I have experience unintended (uncommanded) acceleration. I know for sure how it’s happening on the BMW iX as I tested it with repeatable results 5/5 times. On every test the car would accelerate to the speed limit on the other side of the motorway simply because it was being fooled into thinking the speed limit had increased. This was either through GPS or camera false sensing for want of a better term. My iPace did the same leaving a village with a 20mph speed limit and my foot was away from the accelerator. I can’t say how or why she increased her speed but it flashed 70 on the ACC and she lurched away. I cancelled it immediately and there was no issue. In that case, I really don’t know how or why she increased her speed. There couldn’t have been a 70mph speed limit sign on a country single lane A road leaving village and I didn’t see one but it did happen. And the BMW iX? You give me anyones BMW iX and I can recreate the situation…

Having said that…

Two things are fact… There are far less electric vehicle fires globally than there are petrol car fires.

…and the Daily Mail really is a shit newspaper…

 

[Slartibartfast]

This has now made it to a mail online story, no I won’t link it.

At least they did allow an EV owner to respond that sudden unintended acceleration is not an EV only thing and that they have not experienced any such issues.

What I found telling was that a couple of their videos of these out of control I-Paces had zero brake lights active. So these people claim the car accelerates and they pressed the brakes, yet no brake lights were seen.

Sorry but I believe these are 100% driver error and I would wager almost every incident has involved OPD (high regen) being enabled. This is not an attack on OPD, it’s pointing out that some people simply cannot get used to this new driving style easily IMHO.

I've been 100% convinced these were almost all cases of driver error for some time. Only exceptions are the case of the MG a few weeks ago that seemed to get stuck in cruise and a couple of incidents linked to carpets jamming pedals (which happens with any car, happened to me with a Mini decades ago).

The main issue is that driver error of this kind with an ICE car rarely causes a major problem. A few times (more than I can count) I've accidentally pressed the accelerator when manoeuvring. At worst the car jumped a foot or so before I realised my error. I can't remember any instances like this that caused any damage. An EV is a different beast though. The instant acceleration is massively greater than for most ICE vehicles and could very easily cause a driver to panic.

If a driver panics then then there is a very good chance that they could press further on the accelerator thinking they were pushing the brake pedal. Drivers are also notoriously unreliable when it comes to remembering exactly what happened during an accident - ask any police officer and they will tell you that a driver's account is very often inaccurate. Not deliberately so, it just seems that something about adrenaline messes with our ability to recall events accurately.

 

[6225]

The brake lights are not visible in the video ergo the car was self-accelerating.

You know what they say about assume.

 

[scm]

There are far less electric vehicle fires globally than there are petrol car fires.

Can't argue wth that (apart from using "fewer", not "less") but also a fact is that there are far fewer electric cars than ICEVs globally. And ICEV fires can at least be dealt with by the fire service, and not just "let it burn out". Low probability, very high consequence.

 

[ICDP_EV]

Good morning ICDP_EV

I agree with you and I do think that in most cases it’s highly likely that it’s misplacement of the driving foot and inability to adapt completely. Also sometimes ‘brain farts’ happen and it’s simply that. So I don’t disagree with anything you have said.

However, on both my own iPace and on the BMW iX I have experience unintended (uncommanded) acceleration. I know for sure how it’s happening on the BMW iX as I tested it with repeatable results 5/5 times. On every test the car would accelerate to the speed limit on the other side of the motorway simply because it was being fooled into thinking the speed limit had increased. This was either through GPS or camera false sensing for want of a better term. My iPace did the same leaving a village with a 20mph speed limit and my foot was away from the accelerator. I can’t say how or why she increased her speed but it flashed 70 on the ACC and she lurched away. I cancelled it immediately and there was no issue. In that case, I really don’t know how or why she increased her speed. There couldn’t have been a 70mph speed limit sign on a country single lane A road leaving village and I didn’t see one but it did happen. And the BMW iX? You give me anyones BMW iX and I can recreate the situation…

Having said that…

Two things are fact… There are far less electric vehicle fires globally than there are petrol car fires.

…and the Daily Mail really is a shit newspaper…

Though it should be noted you are describing two very different issues. One is ACC doing what it’s meant to do and getting it wrong. The other is someone convinced they 100% pressed the brakes but the car decided to accelerate instead. The article showed two videos of I-Paces accelerating “on their own”, neither showed brake lights at all. If you were pressing the brakes the brake lights would come on.

To me it looks like the accelerator was pressed and not the brake, and the rapid acceleration from an I-Pace caught them out.

 

[ICDP_EV]

Can't argue wth that (apart from using "fewer", not "less") but also a fact is that there are far fewer electric cars than ICEVs globally. And ICEV fires can at least be dealt with by the fire service, and not just "let it burn out". Low probability, very high consequence.

It’s a myth that EV fires can’t be dealt with by fire services. It was slow at first as they realised the old methods didn’t work but also because EVs were very rare. As they have become more common fire crews are being trained and equipped to deal with them more effectively.

Tackling fires in electric vehicles

www.ife.org.uk

Essex firefighters adapt to new hazards in electric vehicle fires | Essex County Fire and Rescue Service

Although still relatively rare, electric vehicles fires present a new technical and safety challenge for fire services in the UK. Over the last few years, Essex County Fire and Rescue Service have been actively engaged in learning about electric vehicles in order to understand how they need to...

www.essex-fire.gov.uk

 

[Aurora Blue]

Though it should be noted you are describing two very different issues. One is ACC doing what it’s meant to do and getting it wrong. The other is someone convinced they 100% pressed the brakes but the car decided to accelerate instead. The article showed two videos of I-Paces accelerating “on their own”, neither showed brake lights at all. If you were pressing the brakes the brake lights would come on.

To me it looks like the accelerator was pressed and not the brake, and the rapid acceleration from an I-Pace caught them out.

The broader picture being the 'human' is not in control whether the acceleration was, or was not their intention.

From the Daily Mails perspective it's to scaremonger and sensationalise whether true or not.

Both examples are 'unintended' acceleration both on behalf of the designer and the driver. If the car had no driver in it (an SanFransico Robotaxi) and it still did the same (accelerated when not supposed to) it would still be unintended and undesired on behalf on the designer. Unintended being 'uncommanded' 'undesired' or 'unintentional'.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I once had event with a Mitsubishi Shogun many years ago, where it didn't slow down when I lifted off the accelerator. My immediate thought was that the cruise control had got stuck on, so I kept pressing the brake to and trying to manually disengage it (although the cruise engaged light wasn't on). Took me a surprisingly long time to realise that the heavy rubber floor mat had slid forwards and was pushing on the accelerator. Quite a relief when I managed to kick the mat clear and the car returned to normal behaviour. I was driving down an almost empty stretch of the A30 at the time, so there was no significant risk to anyone else.

No doubt if this had been 30 years later with an EV it might well have been reported as an EV unintended acceleration. All I remember at the time is how useless the brakes were. With 2.8 litres of turbocharged diesel power at around 40 mph the brakes were not very effective at slowing the car much. Had it been the IPace, with very much more power and torque than the Shogun, then I'm not convinced that braking would do much, unless the car is clever enough to disable the accelerator pedal if the brake pedal is pushed (I'm not going to try it to check!).

 

[ICDP_EV]

The broader picture being the 'human' is not in control whether the acceleration was, or was not their intention.

From the Daily Mails perspective it's to scaremonger and sensationalise whether true or not.

Both examples are 'unintended' acceleration both on behalf of the designer and the driver. If the car had no driver in it (an SanFransico Robotaxi) and it still did the same (accelerated when not supposed to) it would still be unintended and undesired on behalf on the designer. Unintended being 'uncommanded' 'undesired' or 'unintentional'.

Not comparable in my opinion. The driver not “intending” something does not mean they did not initiate it.

Bringing self drive or ACC into this is a totally separate issue than a driver unintentionally initiating a sudden acceleration event when ACC or self drive is not enabled.

 

[ICDP_EV]

The brake lights are not visible in the video ergo the car was self-accelerating.

You know what they say about assume.

That’s a hell of an assumption.

I prefer Occam’s razor. The simplest solution with the least assumptions is usually the most likely.

While I concede either is possible, I tend to go with the balance of probability.

a) One assumption that the driver pressed the accelerator by mistake. Hence there being no brake lights showing.

Or

b) The car had a software fault and applied full accelerator. At the same time the car had another software fault that disabled the brake pedal. So when the driver pressed the brake pedal it didn’t work. Hence the car shooting forward with no brake lights on.

Until there is definitive proof of b), I will go with a) purely on balance of probability. Open to persuasion in relation to SUA in the I-Pace.

Worth a read

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration#:~:text=Sudden%20unintended%20acceleration%20(SUA)%20is,some%20combination%20of%20these%20factors

.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Is there a brake light switch on the brake pedal, though?

I remember the topic of brake lights on EVs coming up years ago, with respect to OPD. At that time there was confirmation from several EV manufacturers that brake lights were triggered by vehicle deceleration, so would come on if lifting off with OPD. I remember testing this with the Tesla Model 3 when this same question came up on a Tesla forum and proving to myself that the brake lights did indeed come on when the car slowed under regenerative braking.

I would imagine there's still a fail safe brake light switch on the brake pedal, but I don't know for sure if this is the case. If there is now no pedal-operated switch then perhaps the absence of brake lights could be just due to the fact that the car's not decelerating. Perhaps someone that knows the car hardware could confirm whether there is still a conventional brake pedal operated switch.

 

[ICDP_EV]

I looked at the two videos again. On both occasions you see the following behaviour. Conclude what you want.

1. Slight acceleration, indication of the driver doing slow parking manoeuvres and the car working as designed
2. Massive acceleration at what would be logically assumed to be the braking point.
3. No brake lights during the massive acceleration phase.
4. Impact.

 

[Aurora Blue]

Not comparable in my opinion. The driver not “intending” something does not mean they did not initiate it.

Bringing self drive or ACC into this is a totally separate issue than a driver unintentionally initiating a sudden acceleration event when ACC or self drive is not enabled.

The Title of the post is "Sudden Unintended Acceleration"... my 2 examples meet the criteria.

I don't disagree with your opinion. It's most likely human error. But in the two examples I gave, they were both 'sudden' and 'unintended accelerations' absolutely in the opinion of the driver and it would also be reasonable to assess that the designer didn't want their car or application to randomly accelerate using false information.

In relation to the original users post, it's clear she feels it was not her fault. In my case it was absolutely not my desire or intention for either vehicle to suddenly and undesirably accelerate away.

You must always allow for the smallest chance (no matter how unlikely) that the original poster is correct and it was nothing to do with her even if, as you make that statement, you don't believe it yourself.

It would outrageous to think that Boeing would add a device to an aircraft that would try and take over control of that aircraft and crash it into the ground... and not mention it to the pilots... anyone who thinks and said Boeing would do such a thing is libellous and talking crap... (cough cough)

I still agree with you but you always have leave room for the unexpected.